Can Streaming ATMOS Replace Blu-ray Audio?

[edisonbaggins]

Answering the question I've fielded most this week

 

[marpow]

Answering the question I've fielded most this week

Great video Mike, maybe your best so far. I really like how the look of the video has grown since you first started. You also touched on so many points that are true, especially in our world, ears, rigs, perception, etc.
Having been a $19.99 a month Tidal subscriber since 2014, I am wondering after your review will I do the same for Atmos as I have done for stereo or most importantly the music itself. Many times QQ has said, "this is great, can't wait" and I listen in Tidal only to find I don't like it.
I believe with streaming integrated into our home rigs it will save thousands of dollars and many pieces of plastic, that ultimately just go in a cardboard box because they have been ripped.
But, you raise the question, Atmos vs Bluray, or streamed music vs hard copy's. This will be likely the next big question, as many, the record company's included will likely see the value of not having all that waste in cardboard and plastic. I can think of my entire RBCD collection that if I could have all my money back and have it all streamed that would be plenty good enough for me.
But, another but, I, like you, as of this writing am questioning a really good streamed version, digital download, 5.1 or Atmos over a purchase of a box set. If all things where equal, would I for instance only have an Atmos version of Abbey Road vs the box set, for now I would prefer the box set, but if MCH and Atmos continue to grow and streaming or downloading has availability for all content to be in a PDF version ( some already do like NativeDSD) for example I might reconsider.
I also have to assume as the content market grows which it is doing so will the company's that make the listening machines also grow, which they are.
Anyway Mike, your video, got my head going and I thought I would share with you.

 

[J. PUPSTER]

Another great video Mike!

A couple of thoughts I had to kick around here...

You say the the Atmos from Tidal is low by about -20dbs in volume; could that be an attempt to reduce bandwidth since by my working with many files in DAWs it seems if you reduce the amplitude of say a 5.1 mix (and 20dbs is substantial) it tends to reduce file size as well?

As to the photos and booklets/inserts/notes in a hard copy of Blu-ray box set; might an online service (if offered up) provide those things digitized to view on screen at some point as an extra (Okay, maybe not marbles / picks / coasters.)

Also not sure if Atmos streaming can be manipulated to reduce its compression to further reduce bandwidth or are there certain standards that have to abided by?

And finally, I can see them possibly offering up various resolutions eventually all priced differently

 

[dabl]

...
You say the the Atmos from Tidal is low by about -20dbs in volume; could that be an attempt to reduce bandwidth since by my working with many files in DAWs it seems if you reduce the amplitude of say a 5.1 mix (and 20dbs is substantial) it tends to reduce file size as well?

Nah, that wouldn't buy you anything in terms of bandwidth.

 

[dabl]

Mike, your comment about bitrates did get me thinking.

You said a lot of compression was needed to send the Dolby Digital+ audio over the average internet connection these days but it's far FAR less than what they're doing. 768 kbps is an embarrassment. Netflix requires a 25 Mbps minimum connection so there's PLENTY of room to stream audio only at decent fidelity, that only takes a fraction of what video requires.

And even to do lossless True HD the numbers are high but not insane (good album title)

About twice what Netflix currently requires.

Attached is a view of a rip from Blu-Ray of the 5.1 Booka Shade - Galvany Street. The audio track only has a bitrate of ~6500 kb/s so would require ~52 Mbps internet connection, 60 to handle the max.

100 Mbps isn't uncommon at all these days though of course many so get far less. My internet speed has steadily increased over time. I started at ~20 Mbps and am now at 200 with no extra fees other than the steadily rising prices in general.

I wrote Tidal in January telling them they ought to shoot for lossless Atmos streaming since that would truly be pioneering and in line with what they offer for stereo. In the meantime they absolutely should be using a higher bitrate lossy encode. Right now they're using the absolute bottom of the barrel minimum.

After all, the whole point of Tidal is *high resolution audio*

I would admit the disk space for them would be kind of crazy as they would need to save every available Dolby Atmos track on Tidal in AC-4, E-AC-3 and MLP

Then again, isn't stuff like that what our $20/mo is for

 

[edisonbaggins]

Mike, your comment about bitrates did get me thinking.

You said a lot of compression was needed to send the Dolby Digital+ audio over the average internet connection these days but it's far FAR less than what they're doing. 768 kbps is an embarrassment. Netflix requires a 25 Mbps minimum connection so there's PLENTY of room to stream audio only at decent fidelity, that only takes a fraction of what video requires.

And even to do lossless True HD the numbers are high but not insane (good album title)

About twice what Netflix currently requires.

Attached is a view of a rip from Blu-Ray of the 5.1 Booka Shade - Galvany Street. The audio track only has a bitrate of ~6500 kb/s so would require ~52 Mbps internet connection, 60 to handle the max.

100 Mbps isn't uncommon at all these days though of course many so get far less. My internet speed has steadily increased over time. I started at ~20 Mbps and am now at 200 with no extra fees other than the steadily rising prices in general.

I wrote Tidal in January telling them they ought to shoot for lossless Atmos streaming since that would truly be pioneering and in line with what they offer for stereo. In the meantime they absolutely should be using a higher bitrate lossy encode. Right now they're using the absolute bottom of the barrel minimum.

After all, the whole point of Tidal is *high resolution audio*

I would admit the disk space for them would be kind of crazy as they would need to save every available Dolby Atmos track on Tidal in AC-4, E-AC-3 and MLP

Then again, isn't stuff like that what our $20/mo is for

Excellent points. Maybe we can at least pester Tidal to increase their bandwidth settings. Our internet connections can handle it and we want more!!!

 

[EricKalet]

You said a lot of compression was needed to send the Dolby Digital+ audio over the average internet connection these days but it's far FAR less than what they're doing. 768 kbps is an embarrassment.

I wrote Tidal in January telling them they ought to shoot for lossless Atmos streaming since that would truly be pioneering and in line with what they offer for stereo. In the meantime they absolutely should be using a higher bitrate lossy encode. Right now they're using the absolute bottom of the barrel minimum.

After all, the whole point of Tidal is *high resolution audio*

EXACTLY SPOT ON! They certainly can stream at way higher than less than a megabit/sec (768kbps). Atmos over Dolby True HD maxes at 18,000kbps or 18mbps which is actually less than Netflix.

"As Dolby TrueHD is a lossless audio codec, the data rate is variable. For example, Dolby TrueHD bitrates average around 6,000 kbps for Dolby Atmos at 48 kHz with peak data rates up to a maximum of 18,000 kbps for high sampling rate multichannel content."

 

[edisonbaggins]

EXACTLY SPOT ON! They certainly can stream at way higher than less than a megabit/sec (768kbps). Atmos over Dolby True HD maxes at 18,000kbps or 18mbps which is actually less than Netflix.

"As Dolby TrueHD is a lossless audio codec, the data rate is variable. For example, Dolby TrueHD bitrates average around 6,000 kbps for Dolby Atmos at 48 kHz with peak data rates up to a maximum of 18,000 kbps for high sampling rate multichannel content."

I say anyone interested should contact Tidal, asking if and when they'll increase the quality of the Atmos tracks. That would be killer.

 

[EricKalet]

I say anyone interested should contact Tidal, asking if and when they'll increase the quality of the Atmos tracks. That would be killer.

I sure will contact them this week

 

[edisonbaggins]

I also need to remember to "record" some songs getting cut off for their support ticket. They mean a brief video on my phone, I'm guessing?
Anyone else bugging them about the cut off at the beginning of songs? Has it been a problem the last couple of days?

 

[EricKalet]

I had a few moments to draft something and also sent in some attachments. Ticket submitted re: mbps and overall volume levels.

Hi Erickalet,

We've received your request about Tech Support.

Our business hours are Monday to Friday, 6AM-9PM ET.

We're currently experiencing a higher than normal amount of inquiries and are assisting as quickly as we can. Please expect a response within 3 business days.

To expedite the resolution of your request and help us narrow down the root cause of the issue, please respond to this email with the following information:

-Device Operating System (eg iOS 13 or Android 10 or OS 10)
-TIDAL app version

Additionally, you can browse support.tidal.com for answers to frequently asked questions and troubleshooting steps, or self-service via our chatbot in the bottom right-hand corner.

 

[edisonbaggins]

Yeah, they always auto respond asking for device and app versions.

 

[HomerJAU]

Some media players can display album art which I believe can include scans of artwork not just the album cover. Back cover, inner sides, booklet pages, photos of the artists while recording the album etc.

Digital can still deliver that experience you have with the hard copy release to a reasonable extent. You don’t get that on Tidal.

 

[jamoke]

Can streaming ATMOS replace BluRay Audio?

Well, the current 768kbs streaming is about HALF the bit-rate of a redbook CD (1411 kbps). So a Tidal Atmos stream is HALF the bit-rate of a 5.1 DTS CD.
BluRay lossless Dolby trueHD audio on a disc streams at ~18000 kbps, or about 23 times the current Tidal Atmos stream rate.

Bit-rate wise....there is no comparison, but maybe that will change someday.

 

[edisonbaggins]

Just received this charming comment on a Facebook ATMOS group:

Seriously! What is this guy talking about? 7kbit rate in Tidal” and “did I enjoy it ob Tidal”.
I had to stop half way in. Total trash.
Create your own opinion and try to get some true facts to support it.

 

[SMS]

Attached is a view of a rip from Blu-Ray of the 5.1 Booka Shade - Galvany Street. The audio track only has a bitrate of ~6500 kb/s so would require ~52 Mbps internet connection, 60 to handle the max.

dabl, I completely agree with your sentiment. The bitrate Tidal is streaming Atmos tracks at is embarrassing. The lossless stereo tracks Tidal streams consume more bandwidth than 768 kbps.
But, I wanted to correct your math above. 6500 kb/s is kilo-bits per second. Not kilo-Bytes. So, in fact, this could be streamed with 6.5 Mbps of internet bandwidth. Far less than Netflix requires as you pointed out.

 

[AYanguas]

I had a few moments to draft something and also sent in some attachments. Ticket submitted re: mbps and overall volume levels.

Hi Erickalet,

We've received your request about Tech Support.

Our business hours are Monday to Friday, 6AM-9PM ET.

We're currently experiencing a higher than normal amount of inquiries and are assisting as quickly as we can. Please expect a response within 3 business days.

To expedite the resolution of your request and help us narrow down the root cause of the issue, please respond to this email with the following information:

-Device Operating System (eg iOS 13 or Android 10 or OS 10)
-TIDAL app version

Additionally, you can browse support.tidal.com for answers to frequently asked questions and troubleshooting steps, or self-service via our chatbot in the bottom right-hand corner.

I did open the request of Low Volume level on Tidal Atmos tracks some days ago and after several "automatic/standard" answers I received this one today:

""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
Hello,

The issue is on Dolby's end and we are currently working with them to increase the volume "DB", so hopefully it should be resolved this week.
Thank you for your patience.

Best Regards,

Annette
TIDAL Member Support
Team Lead
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""

 

[edisonbaggins]

We're working on a ticket about the cut off song beginnings now

 

[dabl]

dabl, I completely agree with your sentiment. The bitrate Tidal is streaming Atmos tracks at is embarrassing. The lossless stereo tracks Tidal streams consume more bandwidth than 768 kbps.
But, I wanted to correct your math above. 6500 kb/s is kilo-bits per second. Not kilo-Bytes. So, in fact, this could be streamed with 6.5 Mbps of internet bandwidth. Far less than Netflix requires as you pointed out.

Ah good thanks I appreciate that. Yeah obviously math is not my forte and I knew when wading in I'd likely be getting something wrong there. I had been thinking, man it *is* kind of crazy that would take a 50+ Mbps connection

Also should have mentioned the Netflix 25 Mbps required bandwidth is for their full blown 4k stuff, and the real world numbers are more like 15 Mbps sustained for that. For the less higher res Netflix streaming the requirements are much lower.

 

[dabl]

Just received this charming comment on a Facebook ATMOS group:

It is unfortunate that any given youtube video opened up for comments will attract asshats