CD-4 - The thin line between success and failure, but still in the fight!

[edisonbaggins]

yes that's divine but has he tested it on hundreds of CD-4 records!

He hasn't. Why are we beating this dead horse?
Someone just recommend the best stylus for my cart, cart/stylus for my TT and demod, and so forth.
This "your cart wasn't tested on umpteen records" stuff is honestly not helpful.

 

[fredblue]

Right about 9 O'clock for my Lafayette, with the Marantz TT, ADC, etc.

yeay! that's maximum separation on my CD-400B and 4DD-5 with the AT440MLb. the Grundig needs to be closer to 11 with the AT440MLb.

for the AT15Sa, the CD-400B and 4DD-5 prefer 9:30-10-ish. i never tried the Grundig with the AT15Sa. maybe i should!

 

[J. PUPSTER]

As I said @chucky3042 suggested it here in post #6:
https://www.quadraphonicquad.com/fo...dge-stylus-recommendations.32726/#post-640816

I'll consider @chucky3042 an expert on CD-4 once Involve makes a 'Surround Master Maxima' available with CD-4 Demodulation...

and yes, that's a miserably lame ass prodding on my part

 

[fredblue]

He hasn't. Why are we beating this dead horse?
Someone just recommend the best stylus for my cart, cart/stylus for my TT and demod, and so forth.
This "your cart wasn't tested on umpteen records" stuff is honestly not helpful.

oh balls to Picasso! it's gotta be ok to say a cart needs to be tried and tested with CD-4 discs and a CD-4 system if you're going to use it for CD-4. if a cart hasn't been tried extensively in such a way then i would question the basis for the recommendation?

 

[fredblue]

I'll consider @chucky3042 an expert on CD-4 once Involve makes a 'Surround Master Maxima' available with CD-4 Demodulation...

and yes, that's a miserably lame ass prodding on my part

he's not an expert on SQ either!
(just ask OD!) on second thoughts that's another dead horse..

more seriously, i can give an example of a cart recommended for CD-4 (Denon DL-110) that i tried out after being mentioned here and at the SHTV. it lit the 30kHz light sometimes and worked ok on a few CD-4 discs i guess and yeah it was great for Stereo, a nice cart but no good for CD-4. however, i needed to try it on a number of discs to find that out for myself since it wasn't a total failure and i had stupidly failed to ask how much thorough testing the recommendation was based on. we live and learn..

 

[Quad Linda]

Personally wouldn't use an elliptical stylus for CD-4. My preference would be simply an Audio Technica w/Shibata for the simplest most trouble free setup. Quad D's AT recommendation is a sound one.

Not sure if these explain everything, since I've only skimmed them. We had a 3D display at Pacific Stereo (CBS inc.) provided by AT. It had a crystal model of each stylus type, 4" tall, and circumference like a thick permanent marker.

We were AT's largest dealer, with 110 stores. AT's Precept line was created for us. We had exclusives in our regions. You couldn't buy it anywhere else in Chicago.

Carried all the cartridge brands, incl several audiophile lines. We sold ADC, Shure, Empire, Pickering, Stanton, Dynavector, Ortofon, Grado, AT, Micro Acoustics and more. May have forgot a couple...

I use a conical for old 78's
AT & Ortofon Shibatas or fine line for all else.

Elliptical is oval.

I would be sure to buy something with a nude diamond. Most cartridges use bonded. That is a metal shank attached to the cantilever and a diamond tip glued to it. Glue fails, and you've got a blunted hunk of metal playing LP's. Nude diamond is one piece mounted directly to the cantilever.

Shibata, fineline (or microline, etc.) are modified oval. They are mostly the same, EXCEPT a Shibata has a "squared off" back end, fineline is rounded. Slightly less record wear on fineline and no "squared off" back end, which could break if it gets severely worn. Shibata was designed to do less record wear than elliptical and trace the groove better w/less damage to the carrier signal.

Found some good info & explanations at Crutchfield:

https://www.crutchfield.com/S-pIucOoFcGMq/learn/phono-cartridge-guide.html
AT:

https://www.audio-technica.com/en-u...stion-week-can-explain-different-types-styli/

 

[fredblue]

He hasn't. Why are we beating this dead horse?
Someone just recommend the best stylus for my cart, cart/stylus for my TT and demod, and so forth.
This "your cart wasn't tested on umpteen records" stuff is honestly not helpful.

oh, hang on, you mean you want a recommendation!

AT15Sa for maximum separation on discs in great shape.

AT440MLb for everything else.

that's my story and i'm sticking to it!

 

[Sonik Wiz]

As a former Hi-Fi Store groupie I learned that most stereo shops that sold quad still didn't have much respect for it. Indeed I remember CD-4 being refereed to as "Compound Distortion to the 4th Power".

 

[Doug G.]

https://worldradiohistory.com/Archi...idelity/70s/High-Fidelity-1974-04.pdf#page=74^^^
...4DE-202...JVC remastered it (4DE-205)...


Info about the faulty JVC CD-4 setup disc (Involve Audio found that more than 12dB channel separation isn't needed, although I'd recommend trying to get ~15dB, just to have a safety margin).


edit: Lafayette 1974 catalog listing of the CD-4 demod (some specifications):
https://worldradiohistory.com/Archi...talogs/Lafayette-1974-Catalog-740.pdf#page=28

Kirk Bayne

Ah, heady days, those were!

Doug

 

[Quad Linda]

Lots of ways to do it wrong, only a few will do it perfectly.

 

[fredblue]

As a former Hi-Fi Store groupie I learned that most stereo shops that sold quad still didn't have much respect for it. Indeed I remember CD-4 being refereed to as "Compound Distortion to the 4th Power".

heresy!! they shoulda had their mouths washed out with carbolic soap!!

 

[fredblue]

Lots of ways to do it wrong, only a few will do it perfectly.

i'm not sure perfection is achievable with CD-4?
its a great system when it all works and so on.. ah i dunno, it kinda feels like a sort of juggling act of keeping all the skittles of separation and balls of distortion up in the air while batting away any sheets of sandpaper that come your way!

 

[J. PUPSTER]

i'm not sure perfection is achievable with CD-4?
its a great system when it all works and so on.. ah i dunno, it kinda feels like a sort of juggling act of keeping all the skittles of separation and balls of distortion up in the air while batting away any sheets of sandpaper that come your way!

who did you say created this chamber of torture and horrors Freddie, and remind me why we are so crazy for it please?

 

[fredblue]

who did you say created this chamber of torture and horrors Freddie, and remind me why we are so crazy for it please?

whoever it is may be on the Ghost Train by now! unless some wunderkind who cooked it up in the 70's is still in the Hall of Mirrors!

ahh.. good question! i guess we're crazy for it because there's a load of Warners, Elektra, Atlantic, Atco, FPM, Avco, A&M, Motown Quads trapped on CD-4's that feel like they'll never make it out on a modern format now!?

 

[Quad Linda]

Perfection can be achieved w/CD-4, but can be elusive.

No other vinyl Quad format comes close. Quad reels are wonderful. Few titles were done in that format, however.

IMHO, fineline and Shibata even make better sense for 2ch LP's.

 

[Doug G.]

As a former Hi-Fi Store groupie I learned that most stereo shops that sold quad still didn't have much respect for it. Indeed I remember CD-4 being refereed to as "Compound Distortion to the 4th Power".

And that's because most HiFi shop owners/employees didn't know how to set CD-4 up so they denigrated the source of their own failure.

Doug

 

[Quad D]

CD-4 was too tricky to set up for casual use(rs), and there lies its downfall. Like for the rest of the quad at the time, when you think about it.

 

[Doug G.]

A CD-4 setup disc is still the best way to adjust everything, at least to begin with, until you get to know your recordings. Then you can use them but a setup disc is still the best. There is no ambiguity with a setup disc.

Doug

 

[Quad D]

A CD-4 setup disc is still the best way to adjust everything, at least to begin with, until you get to know your recordings. Then you can use them but a setup disc is still the best. There is no ambiguity with a setup disc.

Doug

Totally agree.

 

[Sonik Wiz]

And that's because most HiFi shop owners/employees didn't know how to set CD-4 up so they denigrated the source of their own failure.

Doug

Yup. However they also had rude nick names for QS/SQ that wasn't so tricky to set up.

At one point in the mid 70's I had a roommate that worked for a large audio distributor, Throckmorton. My roommate Tip enjoyed company on road trips so I went to. Occasionally he would schmooze at home with a client. I met a lot of Hi-Fi store owners & their staff. Not one of them had a quad set up of their own. And if they visited our place you could tell it was all they could do to conceal their scorn at my Kenwood 9940 & 4 speaker set up.

However I bet most of them are dead or at least out of business. Mean while I'm still rockin' out to quad & indeed as others have said here, I feel like I am in the second golden age of surround sound. I have the last laugh.