Comments Inspired by Lennon, John - GIMME SOME TRUTH (Ultimate Remixes) [Blu-Ray Audio]

[kokishin]

Although there is a lossy DD 5.1 track on the BD, my Denon 6200 5.1.4 setup does not allow me to access it.

What I can access is the Atmos mix or the lossless Dolby TrueHD (DTHD) 7.1 track. Not interested in the DTS 5.1.

Some folks are saying the DD 5.1 sounds really good. I switched from playing the Atmos track to the DTHD 7.1. It also sounds really good. The side/back surrounds seem to get a boost versus the Atmos mix. The DTHD 7.1 also sounds more immersive which seems somewhat counterintuitive I suppose.

I need to spend more time comparing the Atmos against the DTHD 7.1 but based on spending about 20 minutes comparing the two, I think I'm starting to prefer the DTHD 7.1 over the Atmos mix.

 

[jimfisheye]

There's still fidelity in the butchered streams. High fidelity even and higher fidelity than other stuff in your collection. The streams are still in fact butchered. If you go through the trouble to rip the dd program and have the ability to play it back at matching volume, you will find it's night and day different and the boosted streams are in fact a very butchered copy of what is in the dd stream.

It would be quite possible to match the distortion and alter the dd copy to match the damaged copies. It is not possible to restore the damaged copies to even come close to the fidelity of the dd copy (lossy vs the actual LPCM studio master as it may be). They're too far gone.

There are degrees for everything.

The Atmos stream is in fact damaged from the mastering gone wrong too. There may be fidelity left and it may be exciting hearing all the little speakers sounding around the room. But it is in fact damaged and to the extent that this should be a recall situation for this release.

Oh boy, so the stand-alone DVD players don't let you select the "lesser" dd stream when the machine can read the more advanced stream? That's ugly! You would have to rip it and then author a new DVD for yourself with only the dd stream. PITA but it would absolutely be worth it! This is bad but we DO have a still great copy of a genuinely great 5.1 mix on this disc and that's not nothing!

 

[himey]

There's still fidelity in the butchered streams. High fidelity even and higher fidelity than other stuff in your collection. The streams are still in fact butchered. If you go through the trouble to rip the dd program and have the ability to play it back at matching volume, you will find it's night and day different and the boosted streams are in fact a very butchered copy of what is in the dd stream.

It would be quite possible to match the distortion and alter the dd copy to match the damaged copies. It is not possible to restore the damaged copies to even come close to the fidelity of the dd copy (lossy vs the actual LPCM studio master as it may be). They're too far gone.

There are degrees for everything.

The Atmos stream is in fact damaged from the mastering gone wrong too. There may be fidelity left and it may be exciting hearing all the little speakers sounding around the room. But it is in fact damaged and to the extent that this should be a recall situation for this release.

Oh boy, so the stand-alone DVD players don't let you select the "lesser" dd stream when the machine can read the more advanced stream? That's ugly! You would have to rip it and then author a new DVD for yourself with only the dd stream. PITA but it would absolutely be worth it! This is bad but we DO have a still great copy of a genuinely great 5.1 mix on this disc and that's not nothing!

Couldn't you just add a spdif cable from your player to the processor and choose that input?

This discussion at least proves that their is no core DD track in a 7.1 Atmos track. It is an additional track added...

 

[kokishin]

There's still fidelity in the butchered streams. High fidelity even and higher fidelity than other stuff in your collection. The streams are still in fact butchered. If you go through the trouble to rip the dd program and have the ability to play it back at matching volume, you will find it's night and day different and the boosted streams are in fact a very butchered copy of what is in the dd stream.

It would be quite possible to match the distortion and alter the dd copy to match the damaged copies. It is not possible to restore the damaged copies to even come close to the fidelity of the dd copy (lossy vs the actual LPCM studio master as it may be). They're too far gone.

There are degrees for everything.

The Atmos stream is in fact damaged from the mastering gone wrong too. There may be fidelity left and it may be exciting hearing all the little speakers sounding around the room. But it is in fact damaged and to the extent that this should be a recall situation for this release.

Oh boy, so the stand-alone DVD players don't let you select the "lesser" dd stream when the machine can read the more advanced stream? That's ugly! You would have to rip it and then author a new DVD for yourself with only the dd stream. PITA but it would absolutely be worth it! This is bad but we DO have a still great copy of a genuinely great 5.1 mix on this disc and that's not nothing!

Since I can't select the DD 5.1 from the BD, I used the mkv complete rip which offers all track flavors. I was able to select on the fly the DD 5.1 as well as the DTHD 7.1 (or Atmos) using my Oppo 203. According to my Denon 6200, the DD 5.1 decoded to seven channels (FL, FR, C, SL, SR, SB, LFE) with a single matrixed SB channel. On my system, the single SB channel is steered to the SBL and SBR speakers.

I couldn't tell much difference between the DD 5.1 and the DTHD 7.1

 

[jimfisheye]

MakeMKV - Make MKV from Blu-ray and DVD

MediaInfo

Not sure why I keep forgetting about MediaInfo. Right there in my Applications folder...

OK, I see the exact same thing.

My understanding is the 7.1 "core" is what it is. Height and other objects get directed to the correct position in the height and object array of channels available on the system in question. The point is that the 7.1 core of the Atmos mix does not get manipulated in the process. One scenario that that can lead to is missing elements of the mix if there's miscommunication in the system in the form of it not seeing the object/height array correctly.

That whole subject aside for now. Following the point that the 7.1 core of the mix is the 7.1 core of the mix and it's 1:1 in the data set. (Meaning the 7.1 core is not generated from a data set like the object array. The 7.1 core is a raw data element.) Looking at and listening to the 7.1 8 channel audio (which can be extracted from the Dolby True HD stream and in fact is designed to do so in any system without the Atmos codec). The 7.1 core has the very same sonic destruction as the dts ma 5.1 stream and the stereo stream.

You may be hearing stuff trickle out of some of the height or object channels in your Atmos system and there may be hifi-ish remains of the mix. But the Atmos mix is in fact every bit as destroyed as the other destroyed audio streams and you really are not hearing the mix in any way shape or form as intended.

 

[jefe1]

Finally finally I get to save some money by not buying something........guess I will stick with my Lennon Legend dvd.

 

[perzon57]

That's what I'm telling you, yes.

I could try to be really fair. Put the clues and evidence aside (the raw mix in the dd stream that is). Based just on listening like you're supposed to do.

It is loud but the initial impression is of high fidelity and there's nothing overtly harsh. It doesn't sound like a volume war CD outright.

The crushed 5.1 mix sounds like a ho hum front heavy surround-ish mix at first listen. Again, with hi-fi and not overtly harsh. It insidiously sounds legit and pro but just not that good of a mix ultimately. I'm repeating that first impression to illustrate how much the actual mix was altered and damaged. Because the raw mix in the dd stream is full fidelity, big and warm, discrete and with rears every bit as active as the fronts. Just very well done. The mix engineer would be right to be furious if he heard the mastering error.

My point there is that I would expect the stereo version to be every bit as compromised. We don't have a copy of the unmolested stereo to compare with.


It's still worth considering this set for only the 5.1 mix in the dd stream. It's a really good mix! "only"... You don't get stuff like this every day. And how many times have we reached further for even more damaged copies? Especially the old formats that people share to their best ability.

Still a humiliating defeat of a release!
Recall and collector's item?

And I ask you again,do you have a Atmos setup?

 

[jimfisheye]

And I ask you again,do you have a Atmos setup?

Not yet. Still looking for the decoder codec. I have interface channels and amps/speakers if something lures me to setting up more channels.

My comments on the 7.1 core of the Atmos are from previewing those channels on my 5.1 array. I qualified what I said earlier. The part where that 7.1 core (those 8 channels of audio) comes as is. It is not a derived and constructed on the fly file. Leading to the point that the audio in the 7.1 core looks to be delivered without any decoder corruption from operator error. It has the same sonic "treatment" that the dts ma 5.1 and the stereo stream have.

 

[HomerJAU]

This is the Dolby TrueHD core of the Atmos mix and it's the only part MakeMKV can see per the design of the system and MakeMKV not being updated with the Atmos codec.

MakeMKV rips the Atmos stream but it hasn’t been updated to show the Atmos/TrueHD stream as that codec. If you check the MakeMKV MKV file with the latest (updated) MediaInfo app it shows it as Atmos (16 channel etc). Ffmpeg converts the core TrueHD 7.1 mix as it can’t decode Atmos.

 

[HomerJAU]

I looked at it with MediaInfo and I see the same thing. (Forgot I had that app!)

What version of MediaInfo do you have? (20.10 is latest).

Do you think the 7.1 file is derived and created by MakeMKV?

No. MakeMKV copies the selected audio and video streams. It does not do any conversions. If the selected TrueHD audio stream has Atmos then Atmos extensions get copied along with TrueHD. It’s the same stream, no conversion.

 

[jimfisheye]

What version of MediaInfo do you have? (20.10 is latest).



No. MakeMKV copies the selected audio and video streams. It does not do any conversions. If the selected TrueHD audio stream has Atmos then Atmos extensions get copied along with TrueHD. It’s the same stream, no conversion.

Looks like I have 20.03
It has the identical report on the mkv file as someone else posted.

Yeah, all the documentation states the 7.1 portion of the Atmos comes delivered. It follows current practices, etc etc. I'm going to suggest than anyone who wants to claim the 7.1 core gets altered if you don't have the Atmos playback codec needs to back that up with hard evidence. That in response to the claim that my lack of an Atmos playback codec has corrupted my audition of the 7.1 bed track.

The Atmos codec is supposed to scan the system outputs in order to deliver the object channels properly. Now when you have, for example, only a 7.1 array in total, the result is supposed to be the 7.1 bed with the height and object channels mixed in as properly as possible (with respect to the mix on a full system). The signals coming out your 7.1 outputs are a composite. But the raw 7.1 bed itself as delivered in the file is still as delivered. The point being that it's free for anyone to listen to and critique and the Atmos codec doesn't alter that.

The suggestion in the other thread that I'm making up the entirety of what I've written... Seriously?
Please engage and debunk something I've said if you have knowledge I don't. Strong claims like that require strong evidence IMHO. I've backed up my claims ad nauseam.

 

[LuvMyQuad]

The Atmos codec is supposed to scan the system outputs in order to deliver the object channels properly. Now when you have, for example, only a 7.1 array in total, the result is supposed to be the 7.1 bed with the height and object channels mixed in as properly as possible (with respect to the mix on a full system). The signals coming out your 7.1 outputs are a composite. But the raw 7.1 bed itself as delivered in the file is still as delivered. The point being that it's free for anyone to listen to and critique and the Atmos codec doesn't alter that.

I always thought it worked the other way around. The 7.1 already has the object info imbedded in it. Running it through an Atmos decoder takes that info and routes it to the additional height channels and suppresses it (to whatever degree the mixer specifies) in the 7.1 bed. Kind of like a digital version of a matrix encode. Is this incorrect?

 

[ssully]

If the 7.1 is a 'core' component in a Dolby Atmos file, is not the 5.1 also a core, for legacy purposes? That is, for hardware with pre-Atmos Dolby decoders?

We can extract and analyse cores without Atmos enabled using tools like MakeMKV. Would it be right to say that the only way to objectively analyse Dolby Atmos output in 7.1 (or 5.1?) with Atmos enabled (i.e., with extra channels mixed in to it) would be to record the analog output? Or is there any software yet that does Atmos decoding and can output in multiple channel formats? Because it looks like the comparisons people are interested in include

x.1 core vs x.1 Atmos-enabled
DD vs DTS

Could the DTS cores look so similar yet distinct from DD due to having had Atmos channels mixed in to the DD core before DTS encoding? IOW, the DD 5,1 core + Atmos channels folded in = DTS 5.1 ? This might make sense because you could not get the *Atmos-enabled* DD 5.1/7.1 experience from DTS without doing that .

It would require Atmos-savvy software tools to demonstrate, though.

 

[kokishin]

If the 7.1 is a 'core' component in a Dolby Atmos file, is not the 5.1 also a core, for legacy purposes? That is, for hardware with pre-Atmos Dolby decoders?

We can extract and analyse cores without Atmos enabled using tools like MakeMKV. Would it be right to say that the only way to objectively analyse Dolby Atmos output in 7.1 (or 5.1?) with Atmos enabled (i.e., with extra channels mixed in to it) would be to record the analog output? Or is there any software yet that does Atmos decoding and can output in multiple channel formats? Because it looks like the comparisons people are interested in include

x.1 core vs x.1 Atmos-enabled
DD vs DTS

Could the DTS cores look so similar yet distinct from DD due to having had Atmos channels mixed in to the DD core before DTS encoding? IOW, the DD 5,1 core + Atmos channels folded in = DTS 5.1 ? This might make sense because you could not get the *Atmos-enabled* DD 5.1/7.1 experience from DTS without doing that .

It would require Atmos-savvy software tools to demonstrate, though.

DD is not a core component of DTHD. DD is a separate track and is a BD requirement.

DD does not support Atmos.

DD+ and DTHD support Atmos.

 

[ssully]

If I understand correctly, then, a Dolby TrueHD stream (which can be up to 16 channels and is the bitstream by which Atmos is implemented) if played on a TrueHD capable and enabled system, can downmix from higher to lower channel output, including 5+.1+ >> 5.1. However if a 5.1 system lacks an enabled TrueHD decoder, it will play the separate, dedicated DD 5.1 bitstream.

But a TrueHD Atmos 7.1 file , played on a system with a TrueHD decoder but not Atmos configuration, plays the 7.1 'core' (in the case of Lennon here) of the Atmos bitstream with Atmos elements folded in. Is there any system configuration (e.g., Dolby PLIIz but not TrueHD) that would play the TrueHD 7.1 core without Atmos channel fold-in?

 

[Strilo]

Isn't there an entire thread elsewhere for this discussion of the possible issues with the different formats of the surround mix(es)?

EDIT: There is.

https://www.quadraphonicquad.com/fo...-some-truth-5-1-audio-levels-dts-vs-dd.29254/

 

[ssully]

Isn't there an entire thread elsewhere for this discussion of the possible issues with the different formats of the surround mix(es)?

EDIT: There is.

https://www.quadraphonicquad.com/fo...-some-truth-5-1-audio-levels-dts-vs-dd.29254/

Unfortunately, that only only pertains to the two 5.1 mixes. I agree that it would be great to combine all research into what is going on in the various permutations of format and channel number, into one thread. I've copied these two posts of mine over there now in any case.

 

[jimfisheye]

I always thought it worked the other way around. The 7.1 already has the object info imbedded in it. Running it through an Atmos decoder takes that info and routes it to the additional height channels and suppresses it (to whatever degree the mixer specifies) in the 7.1 bed. Kind of like a digital version of a matrix encode. Is this incorrect?

According to the tech documents, that is incorrect.

For that to be true, you would need a proprietary format that was not 7.1 PCM surround. A 7.1 file is a 7.1 file is a 7.1 file. It's an established format with 8 channels of PCM audio in a single file container.

What's going on is there ISN'T a dedicated new proprietary single file format used for atmos. The designers went with delivering the content in two parts: the 7.1 bed as a 7.1 file and the height+objects as metadata. (Both muxed into a single container format like mkv or bluray but separate components.) The 7.1 element is to go straight to the 7.1 channels. The metadata is to be directed to the height and object channels. The metadata has the ability to be scaled to speaker arrays that don't have the complete compliment of channels vs the full system. (Including folding it into the 7.1 channels in a system with no height or object channels.) Ambisonic techniques are used to scale the height and object channels to smaller arrays.

 

[himey]

From this discussion it seems the Atmos 3D objects are simply discarded, unless you have a newer version of a Dolby TruHD decoder which my guess would be in the newer Atmos processors (?).

So if your receiver does Atmos you should be able to downmix to 7.1 or 5.1 and still get the Atmos 3D objects inserted into the downmix?

Edit...after reading that again, the objects are in the 7.1, and routed to the additional height channels and deleted from the bed once processed. So I guess the objects aren't discarded?

 

[LuvMyQuad]

From this discussion it seems the Atmos 3D objects are simply discarded, unless you have a newer version of a Dolby TruHD decoder which my guess would be in the newer Atmos processors (?).

So if your receiver does Atmos you should be able to downmix to 7.1 or 5.1 and still get the Atmos 3D objects inserted into the downmix?

Edit...after reading that again, the objects are in the 7.1, and routed to the additional height channels and deleted from the bed once processed. So I guess the objects aren't discarded?

I stated that was how i thought it worked in thread #159, but was told that was incorrect.