Dolby Atmos and DialNorm

[MarkyM]

I had a ticket open with Tidal about a different issue (resolved) and I asked him for an update regarding the dangerous 20dB low volume levels on most Tidal Atmos content.

They are now blaming Android (I'm using an Nvidia Shield TV Pro which runs android 11) but isn't this issue presentg on Apple devices as well?

Also, it really was Android's fault, I wouldn't think there would be exceptions to this such as the new live Joni Mitchell album and some others that have "slipped through" that are much louder.

Here's Tidal support's reply:

Regarding your comments about the difference between Dolby Atmos and stereo tracks, please note that we have determined that this is related to the functionality of Android's software on the Android TV platform. We have ensured that the Dolby Atmos tracks are encoded and delivered at the appropriate volume levels. However, it appears that the playback behavior on the Android TV might be impacting the audio experience.

We recommend contacting the NVIDIA support team or checking their official support channels for further assistance. They can provide insights, updates, or potential solutions for this issue, as it falls under their jurisdiction.

We apologize for any inconvenience this may have caused and appreciate your understanding. We remain committed to delivering the best audio experience possible and will work closely with relevant partners to ensure optimal performance.

Warmly,

Jefferson
TIDAL Support

Twitter @TIDALSupport | TIDAL FAQs | [email protected]

 

[AYanguas]

I had a ticket open with Tidal about a different issue (resolved) and I asked him for an update regarding the dangerous 20dB low volume levels on most Tidal Atmos content.

They are now blaming Android (I'm using an Nvidia Shield TV Pro which runs android 11) but isn't this issue presentg on Apple devices as well?

Also, it really was Android's fault, I wouldn't think there would be exceptions to this such as the new live Joni Mitchell album and some others that have "slipped through" that are much louder.

Here's Tidal support's reply:

Regarding your comments about the difference between Dolby Atmos and stereo tracks, please note that we have determined that this is related to the functionality of Android's software on the Android TV platform. We have ensured that the Dolby Atmos tracks are encoded and delivered at the appropriate volume levels. However, it appears that the playback behavior on the Android TV might be impacting the audio experience.

We recommend contacting the NVIDIA support team or checking their official support channels for further assistance. They can provide insights, updates, or potential solutions for this issue, as it falls under their jurisdiction.

We apologize for any inconvenience this may have caused and appreciate your understanding. We remain committed to delivering the best audio experience possible and will work closely with relevant partners to ensure optimal performance.

Warmly,

Jefferson
TIDAL Support

Twitter @TIDALSupport | TIDAL FAQs | [email protected]

This has been already commented here. There is no platform culprit, neither NVIDIA, Android or TIDAL.

The reason for this is the Dolby implementation of the parameter “DialNorm” in Dolby Atmos that was supposed to be to automatic adjustment of the Master Volume Level reproduction for content dealing with “Dialogs”, i.e., TV, films and commercials.

This parameter is ‘used’ or ‘misussed’ by the audio engineer mixing or mastering the final Dolby Atmos track. This parameter can be found in the Dolby Atmos Tidal tracks with some random and not coherent values, among different tracks.

Many claim that this parameter should not be used for MUSIC.

Once the final Master Dolby Atmos track goes to the Platform (TIDAL in this case) nothing can be done.

The players just ‘obey’ that Dolby Atmos parameter ‘DialNorm’ as they should.

Some say that it can be overridden by some settings in the AVR (Denon disabling dynamic volume) but it does not work for me.

The Conclusion and Recommendation IS....…. Be prepared when the Atmos track reaches the end, to have the remote in hand with the finger over the ‘reduce volume’ button.

For more information about the ‘DialNorm’ disaster, read through this article:
https://connectedmag.com.au/dialling-down-dialnorm/
EDITED: Apple, with his 'Spatial Audio' seems to not suffer too much about this problem. I do not know. Perhaps the Atmos 'Masters' for Apple are processed in a different way. I have subscriptions both for Tidal and Apple and it has been this way since the beginning. Tidal Support just tell you to 'Ignore' the problem. They dare not blame Dolby or the sound engineers.

 

[heavensolid98]

This has been already commented here. There is no platform culprit, neither NVIDIA, Android or TIDAL.

The reason for this is the Dolby implementation of the parameter “DialNorm” in Dolby Atmos that was supposed to be to automatic adjustment of the Master Volume Level reproduction for content dealing with “Dialogs”, i.e., TV, films and commercials.

This parameter is ‘used’ or ‘misussed’ by the audio engineer mixing or mastering the final Dolby Atmos track. This parameter can be found in the Dolby Atmos Tidal tracks with some random and not coherent values, among different tracks.

Many claim that this parameter should not be used for MUSIC.

Once the final Master Dolby Atmos track goes to the Platform (TIDAL in this case) nothing can be done.

The players just ‘obey’ that Dolby Atmos parameter ‘DialNorm’ as they should.

Some say that it can be overridden by some settings in the AVR (Denon disabling dynamic volume) but it does not work for me.

The Conclusion and Recommendation IS....…. Be prepared when the Atmos track reaches the end, to have the remote in hand with the finger over the ‘reduce volume’ button.

For more information about the ‘DialNorm’ disaster, read through this article:
https://connectedmag.com.au/dialling-down-dialnorm/
EDITED: Apple, with his 'Spatial Audio' seems to not suffer too much about this problem. I do not know. Perhaps the Atmos 'Masters' for Apple are processed in a different way. I have subscriptions both for Tidal and Apple and it has been this way since the beginning. Tidal Support just tell you to 'Ignore' the problem. They dare not blame Dolby or the sound engineers.

Incorrect. Only level related parameter audio engineers have regarding Dolby Atmos music creation is the regulated (often ignored tho) guideline to hit -18LUFS True Peak -1dBFS. Audio engineers have no access to such 'DialNorm' setting. I don't use Tidal or android TV so I am unaware of this issue but when it comes to TIDAL and Apple, speaker playback should be identical. (headphones playback is a separate matter DD+JOC vs AC-4, Apple Spatial Audio vs Dolby Binaural ReRender)

I find it very consistent on Apple Music because with Sound Check on, stereo playback will drop to -16LUFS, Dolby Atmos content that was created in -18LUFS will be played back at around -16LUFS~-17LUFS (although it will depend on whether you are playing an album or single and it does vary or how much true peak headroom you have left). So in a headphones playback, Dolby Atmos content will always sound louder in spatial audio because Binaural fold down in spatial audio will be louder than -16LUFS. Similar thing with speaker playback, -16LUFS in Dolby Atmos will produce much higher SPL due to more speaker count. I believe this is purposely set up by Apple so when people listen to music on AirPods, Turning on Dolby Atmos content will have an immediate 'wow' effect because its louder (especially with adaptive EQ which basically makes stereo sound worse purposely on AirPods).

When everyone else (Spotify, amazon, tidal, YouTube) was choosing -14LUFS for stereo playback loudness norm and Apple chose -16LUFS, I was surprised that they wanted to go with lower level. Not sure if they actually planned this Spatial Audio 10 years ago.. (I doubt).

Edit: like I said I don't use tidal so I can't speak for what kind of Level normalization system they use for Dolby Atmos. (Maybe they use 'dial norm' which I doubt since LUFS metering is the standard for music)

Edit2: I said 'only level related parameter' but engineers do have additional control over level that is Trim and DownMix settings which does not effect speaker playback but headphones playback and of course re-renders

 

[AYanguas]

Incorrect. Only level related parameter audio engineers have regarding Dolby Atmos music creation is the regulated (often ignored tho) guideline to hit -18LUFS True Peak -1dBFS. Audio engineers have no access to such 'DialNorm' setting. I don't use Tidal or android TV so I am unaware of this issue but when it comes to TIDAL and Apple, speaker playback should be identical. (headphones playback is a separate matter DD+JOC vs AC-4, Apple Spatial Audio vs Dolby Binaural ReRender)

I find it very consistent on Apple Music because with Sound Check on, stereo playback will drop to -16LUFS, Dolby Atmos content that was created in -18LUFS will be played back at around -16LUFS~-17LUFS (although it will depend on whether you are playing an album or single and it does vary or how much true peak headroom you have left). So in a headphones playback, Dolby Atmos content will always sound louder in spatial audio because Binaural fold down in spatial audio will be louder than -16LUFS. Similar thing with speaker playback, -16LUFS in Dolby Atmos will produce much higher SPL due to more speaker count. I believe this is purposely set up by Apple so when people listen to music on AirPods, Turning on Dolby Atmos content will have an immediate 'wow' effect because its louder (especially with adaptive EQ which basically makes stereo sound worse purposely on AirPods).

When everyone else (Spotify, amazon, tidal, YouTube) was choosing -14LUFS for stereo playback loudness norm and Apple chose -16LUFS, I was surprised that they wanted to go with lower level. Not sure if they actually planned this Spatial Audio 10 years ago.. (I doubt).

Edit: like I said I don't use tidal so I can't speak for what kind of Level normalization system they use for Dolby Atmos. (Maybe they use 'dial norm' which I doubt since LUFS metering is the standard for music)

Edit2: I said 'only level related parameter' but engineers do have additional control over level that is Trim and DownMix settings which does not effect speaker playback but headphones playback and of course re-renders

What do you mean exactly by ‘incorrect’?

The fact is that Tidal Atmos tracks have the parameter ‘Dialog Normalization’ usually set to -19 dB (arbitrarily different values for other tracks). That means the Atmos decoder player will execute a master volume reduction of 31-19 = 12dB

This can be easily checked using MediaInfo with Debug/Advanced Mode.

The fact is also that the volume level in Tidal Atmos tracks is usually lower than normal and lower than Apple for the ‘supposed’ same tracks. Experienced by (I assume), all TIDAL subscribers.

According to the article referenced above:

“”"""""""""""
In order for DialNorm to work properly, everything encoded in a Dolby format must first be run through a long term loudness averaging meter
“”"""""""""""

Do you know if that process ‘loudness averaging meter’ is automatic, and the engineer cannot avoid it? Also, is the sound engineer not able to avoid that process and set the value of -31dB for DialNorm, which means that it would not be applied?

I really don’t know about the mastering Dolby Atmos tools. Do you know about them? Do you know exactly if the sound engineer has not access to that process and cannot set the ‘DialNorm’ parameter?

These are the facts found in DD+ Atmos TIDAL and also in some TrueHD Atmos Music Blurays. DialNorm different and lower (in absolute) than -31dB.

If the sound engineers would not have access to that parameter, the culprit would be exclusively Dolby. What happens with the Apple ‘spatial audio’ that is just Dolby Atmos format. Do they know how to adjust properly the ‘DialNorm’?

DISCLAIMER: I always talk about Dolby Atmos playing in a multi speaker theater system. Dolby Atmos downmixed to stereo for headphones would have different scenario.

 

[sjcorne]

Audio engineers have no access to such 'DialNorm' setting

Sorry, but @AYanguas is right. When the ADM BWF masters get converted to a Dolby-encoded format like DD+/JOC (streaming) or TrueHD (Blu-Ray), there absolutely is a dialnorm setting in the encoding software. It should always be set to -31 (ensuring the overall gain is unchanged), but there have been mistakes on a number of recent Blu-Ray releases - such as Blur's The Ballad Of Darren where the TrueHD/Atmos stream was encoded to -19, so the overall gain drops 12 dB.

 

[heavensolid98]

Sorry, but @AYanguas is right. When the ADM BWF masters get converted to a Dolby-encoded format like DD+/JOC (streaming) or TrueHD (Blu-Ray), there absolutely is a dialnorm setting in the encoding software. It should always be set to -31 (ensuring the overall gain is unchanged), but there have been mistakes on a number of recent Blu-Ray releases - such as Blur's The Ballad Of Darren where the TrueHD/Atmos stream was encoded to -19, so the overall gain drops 12 dB.

View attachment 95706

When audio engineers are mixing music for Dolby Atmos, in the Dolby Atmos renderer there is no dial norm setting- it is not set in the production side but rather in the decoding side or encoding into streaming platform. your screenshot is not from Dolby Atmos renderer.

Edit - I am not talking blue ray- since we are talking streaming.

 

[heavensolid98]

What do you mean exactly by ‘incorrect’?

The fact is that Tidal Atmos tracks have the parameter ‘Dialog Normalization’ usually set to -19 dB (arbitrarily different values for other tracks). That means the Atmos decoder player will execute a master volume reduction of 31-19 = 12dB

This can be easily checked using MediaInfo with Debug/Advanced Mode.

The fact is also that the volume level in Tidal Atmos tracks is usually lower than normal and lower than Apple for the ‘supposed’ same tracks. Experienced by (I assume), all TIDAL subscribers.

According to the article referenced above:

“”"""""""""""
In order for DialNorm to work properly, everything encoded in a Dolby format must first be run through a long term loudness averaging meter
“”"""""""""""

Do you know if that process ‘loudness averaging meter’ is automatic, and the engineer cannot avoid it? Also, is the sound engineer not able to avoid that process and set the value of -31dB for DialNorm, which means that it would not be applied?

I really don’t know about the mastering Dolby Atmos tools. Do you know about them? Do you know exactly if the sound engineer has not access to that process and cannot set the ‘DialNorm’ parameter?

These are the facts found in DD+ Atmos TIDAL and also in some TrueHD Atmos Music Blurays. DialNorm different and lower (in absolute) than -31dB.

If the sound engineers would not have access to that parameter, the culprit would be exclusively Dolby. What happens with the Apple ‘spatial audio’ that is just Dolby Atmos format. Do they know how to adjust properly the ‘DialNorm’?

DISCLAIMER: I always talk about Dolby Atmos playing in a multi speaker theater system. Dolby Atmos downmixed to stereo for headphones would have different scenario.

Incorrect as in these settings are not set by audio engineer. I am not familiar with TIDAL but I know for a fact that Apple uses LUFS to measure their loudness. Maybe TIDAL does use DialNorm and mess up with the level when they encode ADM for their playback.

re-reading your comment again, if everything you say is true about DialNorm, it does sound like TIDAL is messed up and touching the level.

Sound engineers use Dolby Atmos Renderer that does not have any settings to control DialNorm- and from what I know, Apple Spatial Audio have nothing to do DialNorm but they use LUFSs to handle levels. There is no documentation about this but I heard this from Buddy Judge and Dale Becker).

 

[sjcorne]

When audio engineers are mixing music for Dolby Atmos, in the Dolby Atmos renderer there is no dial norm setting- it is not set in the production side but rather in the decoding side or encoding into streaming platform. your screenshot is not from Dolby Atmos renderer.

Edit - I am not talking blue ray- since we are talking streaming.

I never said that the dialnorm value was set by the mixing engineer, only that the master file they provide (ADM BWF) must be converted into a Dolby-encoded format for consumer delivery. In the case of Blu-Ray, I assume this conversion is done by the authoring team. I'm not sure what the streaming services do.

 

[heavensolid98]

I never said that the dialnorm value was set by the mixing engineer, only that the master file they provide (ADM BWF) must be converted into a Dolby-encoded format for consumer delivery. In the case of Blu-Ray, I assume this conversion is done by the authoring team. I'm not sure what the streaming services do.

Then we are talking about the same thing. If all @AYanguas said is true regarding the messed up Dialnorm setting by reading TIDAL's meta data which I am not familiar with, then TIDAL is indeed the point person to take the blame.

 

[MarkyM]

Thanks guys for the replies.
This sounds like a real mess that won't be corrected anytime soon :-(

I asked Jefferson from Tidal to ask his engineers to start a dialog with the Dolby engineers about this.
Does anyone think they will??

 

[AYanguas]

Thanks guys for the replies.
This sounds like a real mess that won't be corrected anytime soon :-(

I asked Jefferson from Tidal to ask his engineers to start a dialog with the Dolby engineers about this.
Does anyone think they will??

This link provides some simple information.

Important: Dolby (Atmos) and the dialogue level (aka dialnorm)

It explains what the DialNorm parameter is and how to use it for music.

What should be asked to the Tidal engineers is:
- What Atmos file format do they receive from the providers to load into their servers?
- Is it an already 'encoded' DD+/JOC? Or it is another raw file format and they have to encode it?

The guy that encodes to the final format DD+/JOC is the one that should deal properly with DialNorm. For music he should disable it, or assign -31dB, or setup the content as 'music' in some encoders, which seems to be all the same. For god's sake, it's extremely easy to verify the final file with MediaInfo and see if Dialog Normalization is equal to -31dB

I usually refer to the technicians who process the hard artistic work of sound mixing and mastering as 'sound engineers'. But the final encoding to the final Dolby Atmos format, beeing the step that causes the 'wrong' DialNorm parameter, could be done either by an expert knowledgeable 'sound engineer' or by a 'trainee'.

The simple question is who and from what company executes the final encoding step to the final delivery Dolby Atmos format.

The complex question is where is the Quality Assurance of the final product that leaves many Tidal users dissatisfied with the low volume level.

 

[MarkyM]

Thanks, I sent this info to Jefferson.
We'll see if he really shares this info with the proper team. I hope so!

Thank you for your reply. We appreciate the information provided. We are always eager to listen to our subscribers and we sincerely appreciate your time and effort to share this information with us. We will make sure to share your thoughts with the proper team. Please let us know if you have any questions. Warmly, Jefferson TIDAL Support Twitter @TIDALSupport | TIDAL FAQs | [email protected]

 

[MarkyM]

Now Geferson S (as opposed to Jefferson V) has replied as follows...
I hope he gets this info to the right people.

Geferson S. (TIDAL) Sep 1, 2023, 3:22 PM EDT Hi Mark, Thank you for providing additional information and insights into the Dolby Atmos low-volume issue. We appreciate your detailed input on this matter. We appreciate your engagement in this matter, and we'll continue to work towards finding a solution that enhances the audio quality and user experience for TIDAL subscribers. Your feedback is invaluable in this process. Best regards, Geferson TIDAL Support Twitter @TIDALSupport | TIDAL FAQs | [email protected]

 

[jimfisheye]

It took me a 2nd look at the Dolby encoder to find the dropdown menu for dialnorm and set it to -31. My first test render before finding it looked just like that Zappa release.

Then we have these more prominent menus for 'music' vs 'film' settings that don't appear to have any effect. The software is just a little cryptic.

Even if you get one of the -12db quiet ones you still have a 22 bit recording after that. I think the output from the Dolby reference player is 32 bit floating point to the audio system though. If that's right then there will be almost no loss. None of this should be audible in any way either way.

Blasting yourself and your speakers out with +12 monitor volume left up after that Zappa disc when you listen to the next thing is no joke though! So that's kind of not OK.

Anyway it's on the right side of the screen about 2/3 down under general.

 

[MarkyM]

Once the volume issue is fixed (if it ever is) there will still be the issue that 95% of the Atmos mixes being thrown up there are mostly worthless, as if the existing stereo mix is just being run through some kind of crappy upmixer or just with added "ambience", likely by some intern at the label.

There should be some kind of indication like in the old days when stereo was first introduced to vinyl records and labels started releasing albums that were mono mixes run trough a dreadful "stereo synthesizer". They used to say something like "Electronically re-Channeled for Stereo" on the label
We need labeling like that for these "fake" Atmos releases.

I suppose some of the bad ones are done by artist-approved people where the artists themselves have no interest in anything but the stereo mix they feel they have slaved over (and don't want to go through that again). But I suspect many of them are done by the labels just to to have "product" available.

 

[Albert Dagger]

DialNorm used to be an issue when listening to Atmos mixes from Tidal on my old receiver, a Denon X6400H. I've now upgraded to the Marantz AV 10 and the volume issue is completely gone. DialNorm is bypassed as long as the option Loudness Management is set to Off.

In the early days of Atmos streaming, many Tidal users switched to Apple for this very reason, but it should no longer be a problem for users with a Denon/Marantz processor or receiver purchased after 2019.

 

[dabl]

Thank you MarkyM for continuing to beat the drum on this with Tidal.

Based on their inaction to my reports of this and many other issues to them in the past I gave up reporting things to them long ago.

But I'm glad to see they seem to have actually at least started to listen this time.

It's an absolutely ludicrous, persistent, gross error, present from the beginning, that should have been caught and corrected years ago.

I agree with the notion that the reason it hasn't is likely twofold. First, the critical conversion step introducing dialnorm into the stream is probably many times being done by inexperienced people. Second, there are simply little to no quality control processes in place such as people being assigned to simply listen to things going out as a final check. This basic step was always there in any serious music production facility like a recording or mastering studio when I was going through those ranks decades ago that seems to have gotten lost somewhere along the line. Of course the shear volume of stuff being converted and put online makes this difficult if not impossible I suppose. Still, the ears are absolutely out there and available to do it if anybody truly cared. If I ran the zoo I'd offer young people an opportunity to be quality control testers in exchange for free access, contingent on actual report submissions etc. I think there'd be plenty of people who'd do it and do it well.

One thing I haven't seen mentioned in this thread (unless I missed it) is the reason Apple has been able to mitigate if not avoid this specific problem. They use Dolby MAT as a delivery mechanism for Atmos.