ELP Emerson Lake & Palmer Cataloge in 5.1 Surround

[tarkusnj]

My friends Jon and Linda got to hang out with him. They're good friends of both Keith and Greg.

Small world...they live down the road from me and I know them well also. I get the connection...Jon is a BIG Floyd fan but Linda drags him all over to see anything ELP. They stayed with me in London for the High Voltage Festival.

 

[quadaholic]

Dear ELP fans and Quad diehards,

Haven't had a chance to check this thread for a while. Still need to buy my copies of the first two records in surround, but was saddened to see that it looks like no more releases have been scheduled at the moment. In particular, have been interested in all the talk about the Welcome Back live release, as I have been a fan of that record since it first came out. I, for one, have always been a fan of the sound of that record, although I have seen some mentions where people have issue with the ambient sounding mix.
In any case, I have recently contacted Peter Granet, the engineer who did the original mixes of the album. FYI he also went on to engineer Greg's "Father Christmas" single as well as Gregs solo tracks on "Works". Compared to other engineers from this period who have developed significant long term memory loss (hint hint), Peters memories were/are very clear, and was able to give some very succinct recollections of the mixes. I would like to pass this info along to you all, as it is very pertinent to this thread, both because of ELP and because of the Quad nature of the original recordings. So here goes....

1) This record was ONLY mixed in quad. It was never mixed in stereo. The record we all know and love in stereo was derived by blending the back two channels onto the front pair. The observations about the ambient nature of the mix at times relate directly to this idea. When Greg left the studio when the mixes were done, he left with two sets of identical mixes. One was for King Biscuit, and the other was for the Manticore people.
2) The idea of the original mix was to mirror what would have been going on in the auditorium if you were at the show. For the most part,the band would be in front of you, with ambience mikes and effects returns in the back channels, as well as the occasional keyboard solos, which were also panning a lot with the quad pa they were using. According to Peter, the back channels consisted of 2 of the four audience mikes, reverb and echo returns and the panning Moog stuff.
3) The recordings were done with the Wally Heider mobile, which was equipped with API consoles. It is significant to note that this was the same recording service that recorded the Cal Jam performance as well as Genesis at the Shrine auditorium a year later. The api consoles have more of sharp and crisp sound compared to the thicker sounding Neve consoles that were used on the King Biscuit mixes that were mainly done in NewYork.
4) Apparently there were some test pressings and maybe even some very early production copies of the record that were circulated where the back channel blending wasn't quite right, resulting in a dryer sounding mix with no echo's on Gregs vocals during the acoustic numbers. While this was tweaked, there may actually be some collectors items out there with dry'ish sound. With this in mind, I recently found a rip of the old "Callow and Crash and Idle Eyes" bootleg. This was sourced from an early broadcast of the show, and in fact the mix is very dry with no efx on the vocals. My hunch is that this wasn't taken from a King Biscuit show like I originally thought, and maybe from a "sneak peek" type of broadcast that was done before the album was released. I remember a broadcast of this kind in Boston back in the day, so maybe this boot is from a test pressing broadcast.


Supposedly most of the King Biscuit quad mixes were lost in a fire. They remixed stuff to compensate for this, and the existing King Biscuit cds of this show have a dryer mix than the lp. Whether they did a quad or stereo remix, or are just using the front channels of the original mix is up for discussion. The experts can sort that one out.
As far as the location of the masters, Wolfgangs vault would be the most likely candidate. Apparently their off-site storage of tapes is pretty huge, and the idea of a mislabeled multitrack or two kicking around seems entirely possible, especially if the show had to be remixed at some point. Concerning the 4 track master, there is no listing of a mastering lab, but one would guess that if it was one of the more prominent mastering labs it might still be sitting in a tape library somewhere. It had to have been bounced down to stereo somewhere.

On a separate note, the wiki page mentions that it wasn't mastered to quad lp because of stability issues with CD-4, but don't really understand this, as the mix is very straightforward. Seems like it would have been a piece of cake with SQ or QS matrix, but who knows. I am not an expert in this area.

Anyway, hope this adds to the knowledge pool, and here's to hoping that some sort of old quad masters or multi's come to light so we can enjoy this music some more.

 

[pklshpu]

2) The idea of the original mix was to mirror what would have been going on in the auditorium if you were at the show. For the most part,the band would be in front of you, with ambience mikes and effects returns in the back channels, as well as the occasional keyboard solos, which were also panning a lot with the quad pa they were using. According to Peter, the back channels consisted of 2 of the four audience mikes, reverb and echo returns and the panning Moog stuff.

Plenty of important information, thank you, quadaholic! To me particularly the second topic of your post answers a doubt I had for ages, that is, whether the quad mix for KBFH/Manticore was meant to reproduce the live quad experience or would have a "behaviour" on its own instead.

I wonder also if there's a quad tape somewhere of the Cal Jam show. In the pre-DVD era, I had a VHS copy of the ELP Cal Jam show in which there was a fragment of them playing a small bit of Pictures At An Exhibition. Terrible image quality, but at that point, there was a subtitle onscreen that read something like "To Listen in Quadraphonic, Tune In To ??.? FM"

If such thing exists (and it must, otherwise that subtitle was out of place), not only the entire Cal Jam ELP on video is the holy grail, but also the quad tape!

 

[quadaholic]

Pkishpu,

Your raised some good points and wanted to respond to them.
1) Yes, the ELP live record was supposed to have a documentary kind of feel to it, as supposed to just going crazy with placement of the tracks. With that in mind, the "Idle Eyes" bootleg I mentioned has a couple of audience source tracks on it that appear to be from the same show (Jerusalem and Toccato), and on those tracks you can hear the synth tracks getting very close or far away from the taper. He must have been near one of the quad stacks.
2) Cal Jam is a real can of worms. I went through a period of trying to get more specifics on this show, as there is very little known about this other than the existing copies that seem to have turned up on Youtube and the like. Here is what little I was able to find out. I tracked down one of the people who mixed the show, both for tv and radio. The tv mixes were mono, while the radio mixes were stereo. The radio mixes were recorded to 3.75 ips tape, so that each broadcast of the show could play back start to finish non-stop on one continuous reel. The concerts were simulcast on various fm stations, and insanely enough he mentioned that the radio feed was MANUALLY synched up to the tv broadcast by a start cue that the radio stations got from ABC i.e. "When I say go, press PLAY. Seems utterly insane, but that's what he said and it supposedly worked pretty well.
I am familiar with your mention of the Quad simulcast as I have the same beat up video clip myself on a VHS somewhere. Pretty sure it was for KLOS in Los Angeles. Despite this mention, the mix engineer I talked with was pretty sure there were no quad mixes done, so that possibly is a mistake on the part of the ABC affiliate in LA who broadcast that banner. HOWEVER, there is a CalJam vinyl boot that references QS matrix. Been trying to find a rip of that for years (anybody have one out there?) in the hopes of checking for encoding. Once again, this could be a mistake, possibly from being taped in the LA area and hearing the same erroneous from the KLOS. It should be noted that Shout Factory just announced pre-sales for an ELP CalJam audio cd, and that would be worth checking when it is available.
A while ago, I received some very good stereo files of the show from a member of this forum, and sadly they didn't appear to have any encoding on them. I am wondering if his files were from the same source that ShoutFactory is using.
As to the whereabouts of these tapes, that is anybodies guess. The shows were definitely multi-tracked. Heider studios closed years ago, but would be interesting to know what became of their tape library. Also, Dick Clark produced the "In Concert" series, and it's possible some tapes could be buried in his vaults. He very shrewd with his business dealings, and his company might have info to pass along if asked by the right person Have made some inquiries there, but no responses, so I guess that person isn't me.
While the video footage may have been erased as many have said, feel like there is a better chance the multi's might have survived, but who knows.
I haven't heard the most up to date video release of Deep Purples performance, but would be curious to know how good it sounds, and whether is sounds like a contemporary remix of the sound. Supposedly Deep Purple were the only band on the bill to make provisions for broadcast rights. Considering how hard-core Stuart Young has been about protecting ELP's intellectual property, it's kind of remarkable that both CalJam and Anaheim have gone missing. Between Stuart Young and Dick Clark productions, very surprising that no one knows what happened to the stuff.
Hope this answers some of your questions.

 

[pklshpu]

Thanks again for the huge amount of in-depth information, Quadaholic!
ELP is my favorite band, and the "Welcome Back" period/album is my favorite... So imagine how happy I am when apparently there is going to be no WBMF in Quad/5.1 Surround, no complete Cal Jam Video, no complete Cal Jam audio.

You even nailed the right FM station! I refreshed my memory with the help of youtube and the message my old dirty VHS had was "To Listen In Stereo Or Quad Dial KLOS FM 95 1/2" (watch here at 45'10''). Funny how this youtube video is exactly like my videotape: mine also had a great loss of quality particularly on the PAAE segment.

Wonder if, considering the facts you brought us, is too much to consider at least the possibility that Stuart Young and other ELP related people don't say a word about the Cal Jam tapes because they know very well where they are, but, not being as cautious as Deep Purple was, they'd have nowadays to negotiate and pay top dollar to release anything beyond those 50 minutes we all know. I could believe in such scenario.

What you say about Stewart Young matches everything I've ever read about him. Apparently, he was extremely tough in each and every negotiation the band was in to. I'm not in the industry, but I have doubts about the theory that bands back then in the '70s just didn't care about keeping videos and tapes not planned to be released in the immediate future. The words "memory" and "archive" must have had a special meaning to the band at the time. ELP had a TV documentary aired only some months before the Cal Jam and the WBMF show (the so called "Manticore Special"/BBC's TOGWT), and three years later they'd have the In Concert Montreal show taped and videotaped, regardless of the fact there was no immediate use to it. So Cal Jam videotapes and reels must have meant something to them back then. I can't imagine the three guys and SY just letting the Cal Jam loose. It doesn't make sense to me: a top band million seller headliner (I once read that in 1974 ELP were only behind The Stones, The Who and Zeppelin, rock band money-wise) has arguably the most important show of its history and just forgets about it as soon as it's over.

Maybe, ELP nowadays have the policy of releasing only material that will cost them nearly nothing, so jerks like me will buy their 10th "Brain Salad Surgery" for just one extra track or maybe new details coming out of a better mix (my BSSs: 2 vinyls, 5 CDs, 1 DVD-A, 1 SACD package, and ready for #10!). I do think even the hardcore fans will get tired of this one day.

 

[quadaholic]

pkishpu,

You probably have a point about the money business. While I would still say that a lot of bands could have taken better care of their intellectual property, I bet you are right about Stuart Young not wanting to deal with anything that would cost a lot of money to sort through, as you can't be doing things that you would lose money on at the end of the day, and let's face it, this is kind of a niche market kind of thing that will sell to an aging consumer demographic. Negotiating with Dick Clark Productions wouldn't be cheap, and then you would probably have to clear things with whatever record label might want royalties. With the live album, that would presumably be a little simpler, but with both shows the band most likely was allowed to have mixes but the other party retained the multitracks and other raw source material (pretty sure that was how King Biscuit operated, and ABC must have been similar). With this money concept in mind, though, it's surprising that no one in the Black Sabbath camp hasn't made an effort to grab their Cal Jam footage. They could theoretically afford just about anything I would guess, and it would definitely sell to their (considerably larger) fanbase.
PS as far as a complete video of ELP is concerned, it might actually be all on youtube at this point. Most of the stuff was broadcast on one night, with "Pictures" being on another. Supposedly they played a shorter set that night, so I bet that a bunch of things were cut from the set. I'm sure a diehard out there might know the set list, as I am not sure.

Just for the record, in addition this lost(?) ELP footage, think of some other ones that come to mind. Pink Floyd not having possession of quad prints of Pompeii. Yes having no idea what became of all of their Yessongs footage. Genesis not filming the Lamb lies down on broadway, as well as not having good quality prints and/or control of virtually all of their pre-1980 concert footage, where most of it has been tracked down by superfans.
The thing you need to keep in mind is that back in those days the idea of videotape rentals, cable and tv rebroadcast was not on the radar yet. At best, you were looking at a few midnight matinee options and that was about it. It was viewed as promo material, and not the potential cash cow it has become in recent years.
In any case, like I've said all ready- keep fingers crossed and let's see what eventually turns up. Looking forward to checking out Quad Pompeii tonight. If I get the bug to make some inquiries again, will make sure I pass the (non) results along.

 

[rontoon]

Looking forward to checking out Quad Pompeii tonight.

I'm also looking forward to checking out this DVD-A tonight. A lot of dedication and hard work went into this project. And FYI I also have a DVD-A I created from the discrete 4 channels of Welcome Back... which, IIRC, was sourced from the 8-track quad release.

 

[quadaholic]

Yes, I have that one also. TarkusNJ did a great job with it. At this point that might be the closest we get to the real deal.

 

[quadaholic]

Oops, just realized you did it yourself and weren't referring to Tark's . Are you on the hub? Might want grab a copy of that at some point if possible.

 

[pklshpu]

You mentioned another great source of suffering to me, Quadaholic, that is the fact that "The Lamb Lies Down On Broadway" was not officially filmed. What's wrong with 1974 anyway? Many prog bands were at their peak (to me that's a fact regarding ELP and Genesis) but never cared to document it right!
I think it's very conclusive you bringing Black Sabbath to the discussion as well as the indisputable fact that their huge fan base would buy just about anything! Maybe I'm wrong, but to me that means one of two things: whoever has the tapes is asking a price beyond any profit (so maybe it's Mr. Clark asking big money) or else the tapes are really missing (which I refuse to believe, part because I just can't face it, part because we're not talking about a school recital here, it was a huge event!)

 

[tarkusnj]

Just got some internet back. It is a nightmare around here. Most areas around me have no electricity but I survived with a little luck. Most grocery stores are without power as are gas stations and those gas stations that DO have power and gas with have lines a mile long trying to fill their cars and gas cans for generators. Saw two guys going at it with baseball bats at a gas station.
Back on the ELP topic, I did discuss the new and upcoming releases with Keith and the Razor & Tie involvement. When I and a friend of mine who has helped Keith with other projects offered our assistance in the future releases, he assured us the project was in good hands. Also gave him my recording from MSG, July 8, 1977 orchestra show which he mentioned in his autobiography as one of his most memorable shows and he claimed he never heard it. Never wanted to admit it was mine but his friend told him I made it and he didn't seem to care.
Then a friend drove Keith and his gf to NYC for a meeting on Monday. Not sure what for as I have not had contact with the person who knows but I am sure Keith didn't make it out of NYC!

 

[user 1679]

"in good hands" - I hope that means maybe more 5.1 releases. Thanks for the update, every little bit of info is welcome!

 

[ssully]

The main one is Jerusalem, the opening lines are a different performance, up until "And did the Countenance Divine,"
I read an article somewhere at the time they were producing the 5.1 mixes that some parts were being touched up.
The first time I listened to the DVD slight variations caught my ear in various tracks. Now that I am used to it it has become a blur,
but definitely the opening lines are noticeable for phrasing and pitch.

Those certainly aren't re-recordings for the DVDA ; they are alternate tracks from the BSS sessions. Probably the original tracks, and the things you heard on the LP were punch-ins.

 

[ssully]

For whoever asked about the Deep Purple CalJam releases....they look and sound great. Far better than the official snippets of ELP's CalJam performance that have come out. This suggests there MUST be a better existing video source (and audio source) of the CalJam stuff, than what we got on 'Beyond the Beginning"

 

[pklshpu]

For whoever asked about the Deep Purple CalJam releases....they look and sound great. Far better than the official snippets of ELP's CalJam performance that have come out. This suggests there MUST be a better existing video source (and audio source) of the CalJam stuff, than what we got on 'Beyond the Beginning"

That makes sense! If Purple had a source in good shape and had it released, why wouldn't ELP had also a good source of it...
So that raises also the hypothesis that ELP know where to get a good source of the Cal Jam show, but paying what might be asked for it may be not that interesting to them. After all, they can keep exploiting nearly free of cost releases for a long time: more bad sounding bootlegs, more classic albums re-re-re-remixes with one extra track and so on (not talking about the 5.1 project, that is really a novelty IMMO).
But I keep asking myself why Black Sabbath would not release its gig as well? For certainly it would sell a lot, guaranteed profits.

I always had the doubt whether the ELP Cal Jam set list was smaller than the usual 1974 ELP shows or not, and we had discussed about it on previous posts on this thread. I checked around and it seems it was a nearly complete setlist. I reproduce below a setlist based on this link:

1. Hoedown
2. Jerusalem
3. Toccata
4. Tarkus
5. Take a Pebble
6. Still.... You Turn Me On
7. Lucky Man
6. Piano Improvisations
7. Take a Pebble [Conclusion]
8. Karn Evil 9 [First and Third Impressions]
9. Pictures At An Exhibition [Encore (considering bootlegs from other shows from the 1974 era, it must have lasted about 15 minutes, maybe a little longer because of the "spinning piano" act)]

 

[strat54]

Just got some internet back. It is a nightmare around here.

Welcome back my friend....
I just got power and internet back tonight. Wow, it's amazing how a few hours of mother nature can send us back 100 years. Candles, firewood, matches, blankets, canned food, Sandy kicked our asses. My heart goes out to all those who lost family members, houses, cars, photos, memories and more. Seven days without power, I got away easy.

 

[pklshpu]

Just a small note on the Cal Jam setlist:

So, supposedly, there was no "Jeremy Bender/The Sheriff" (as no "Benny the Bouncer", alternatively) nor "Karn Evil 9 - Second Impression" on the Cal Jam gig.

But something is just weird about all that, if you watch the Cal Jam video carefully:

1) If there was really no "Jeremy Bender/The Sheriff", why the upright piano (which I believe it was a 73-note Lawrence) was on stage? As far as I know, the upright piano was only played on the "saloon" section. Nevertheless, if you watch the Cal Jam video, you'll notice it is close to the Steinway concert piano (as usual - just like the photo of the "Welcome Back My Friends" album shows).

2) If there was really no "Karn Evil 9 - Second Impression", why the "second" Minimoog was on the Steinway? Again, as far as I know, the second Minimoog was only used on "Second Impression", on the "Steel Drum" solo (note that the second Minimoog had even its panel down, again like the photo of the WBMF album -- I presume that was because it had a single "patch" synth sound used during the whole setlist, and at a single moment of the setlist).

Would they move an upright piano and a Minimoog onstage for nothing?
Another question: would they really "damage" a full "Karn Evil 9" (by cutting off "Second Impression"), arguably the main piece of the setlist, and keep IMMO more lukewarm moments like "Piano Improvisations"?
They'd save 10 minutes in a 2 hour show (not that much of a time saving!) and would in a way spoiled the gig. It just doesn't make sense to me.

So maybe they did play "Jeremy Bender/The Sheriff" (or "Benny the Bouncer" instead, which is a bit unlikely) and "Karn Evil 9 - Second Impression".

 

[user 1679]

^^ Interesting thoughts. Seems ELP @ Cal Jam is a never ending topic!

Perhaps they planned on playing those tracks but didn't due to time constraints. If I recall correctly, there was somewhat of a delay in the show as Deep Purple wouldn't go on at their scheduled time as they insisted that the sun be down. Maybe that cut into things a bit and ELP paid the price?

Or it could simply be that the crew and band had a pretty much standard setup and saw no real need to deviate from it.

 

[tarkusnj]

^^ Interesting thoughts. Seems ELP @ Cal Jam is a never ending topic!

Perhaps they planned on playing those tracks but didn't due to time constraints. If I recall correctly, there was somewhat of a delay in the show as Deep Purple wouldn't go on at their scheduled time as they insisted that the sun be down. Maybe that cut into things a bit and ELP paid the price?

Or it could simply be that the crew and band had a pretty much standard setup and saw no real need to deviate from it.

Good question. I would think they played their entire BSS tour set at Cal Jam. I will see if Keith can answer that but sometimes his and Greg's memory are just like ours at this stage of their reign on this Earth. Keith told me 25 years ago about playing Trilogy live in Europe..he said it might have been Germany but then the Long Beach CA bootleg surfaced and there it was.

 

[inkubuzz]

any news about Trilogy being released? or if the sales where any good form the first two?