How we gonna play our discs in the next future?!

[jimfisheye]

Perhaps an open source file format for up to 100 channels (for example) of PCM audio (96kHz 20 bits only) and a "VLC" type open source player & recorder.

The official wavpack format supports 256 channels. Not just 24 bit but 32 bit floating point if you choose. You could put 20 bit into it if you wished. All sample rates supported. This is the official wav lossless compression format. Flac just hit the streets sooner and ended up the consumer download and media player format. Wavpack takes over again over 8 channels.

If open source is a requirement maybe flac could be upgraded to 256 channels too? Wavpack is pretty friendly though. Supports all the channels of Atmos mixes losslessly and directly and plays them in a standard media player. (Either already decoded with a Dolby decoder or your own mix straight from the mixing board.)

 

[kfbkfb]

.

 

[barfle]

You can also convert it to DXD to edit it.

Everything I’ve read about DXD says it’s PCM.

 

[Sal1950]

Everything I’ve read about DXD says it’s PCM.

It is, just a fancy name for PCM running at 24-352.8, 8 times the std CD rate.

 

[par4ken]

One definite problem with DSD is that you can't edit it in any way without converting it to PCM. So why make DSD in the first place?

One advantage is that it can't, so less chance of botched mastering like we get with so many CD releases. I think that most stereo SACD releases are flat transfers. Sometimes they benefit from a bit of added bass and treble on playback but thats all.

Digital eXtreme Definition (DXD) is "In contrast with DSD-Wide or DSD Pure which offers level, EQ, and crossfade edits at the DSD sample rate with 24-bit resolution" .

So then DXD converts to PCM so that all PCM plugins can be used. It was intended to edit as PCM before the final conversion to DSD. DSD-Wide or DSD Pure appears to work directly on the DSD signal but in a very limited fashion which IMHO is actually an advantage,

 

[par4ken]

The official wavpack format supports 256 channels. Not just 24 bit but 32 bit floating point if you choose. You could put 20 bit into it if you wished. All sample rates supported. This is the official wav lossless compression format. Flac just hit the streets sooner and ended up the consumer download and media player format. Wavpack takes over again over 8 channels.

If open source is a requirement maybe flac could be upgraded to 256 channels too? Wavpack is pretty friendly though. Supports all the channels of Atmos mixes losslessly and directly and plays them in a standard media player. (Either already decoded with a Dolby decoder or your own mix straight from the mixing board.)

Cool with Wavpack we are ready for when Atmos with its relatively few channels becomes passe.

 

[barfle]

One advantage is that it can't, so less chance of botched mastering like we get with so many CD releases. I think that most stereo SACD releases are flat transfers. Sometimes they benefit from a bit of added bass and treble on playback but thats all.

Digital eXtreme Definition (DXD) is "In contrast with DSD-Wide or DSD Pure which offers level, EQ, and crossfade edits at the DSD sample rate with 24-bit resolution" .

So then DXD converts to PCM so that all PCM plugins can be used. It was intended to edit as PCM before the final conversion to DSD. DSD-Wide or DSD Pure appears to work directly on the DSD signal but in a very limited fashion which IMHO is actually an advantage,

I know how DSD works - my senior project in college was a delta modulator. I don’t know how the recordings are mixed and mastered, though. DSD is a fairly impenetrable storage format, which IMNSHO, appealed to Sony when they were trying to figure out what might have been CD 2.0.

It sounds great and has decent capacity. But these days, it seems redundant. At least to me.

 

[DuncanS]

DSD is a modern take (i.e. we can do considerably higher sampling rates) of the Delta-Sigma Modulation technique first proposed in 1946! I used a Delta-Sigma ADC in a seismic system design back in the late 1980s, as we could get the 20-bit resolution we required, but the bandwidth was low, so OK for seismic stuff. When decimated down (to get a sample rate reduction), the no. of bits of resolution increases, so standard DSD is the equivalent to 24-bit PCM - it may be more linear than other techniques but that depends on a different set of factors compared to a standard ADC/DAC. But, it is the most digital of all the methods, as it relies heavily on DSP techniques like noise shaping to shift unwanted 'artefacts' out of band or it would sound dire. DXD is just standard 24-bit PCM at 352.8kHz sample rate. I doubt if I could tell the difference between a well mastered DSD/SACD & PCM/BD.

 

[par4ken]

I know how DSD works - my senior project in college was a delta modulator. I don’t know how the recordings are mixed and mastered, though. DSD is a fairly impenetrable storage format, which IMNSHO, appealed to Sony when they were trying to figure out what might have been CD 2.0.

It sounds great and has decent capacity. But these days, it seems redundant. At least to me.

No doubt that Sony had in mind not just better sound but a disc that could not be copied. That cat and mouse game continues through virtually all formats.

There are DSD fanatics I understand that convert PCM to DSD so that it can be converted to analogue by thier expensive DSD DACs. They swear by the "improved" sound quality. I would fault nobody for that. It is like the tube/transistor controversy. High end audio is as much art as it is science. If it sounds good it is good!

 

[marpow]

I saw this thread start, when it started, but decided why even look, the answer is obvious, rip all hard discs to files.
But today, I glanced and saw the thread now has legs, 5 pages, what's going on, so I decided to read the 5 pages.
Lots of interesting stuff that I learned.
I rip all discs in it's native format. My playback is JRiver software/player which has the capability of play back in native format files, I think 200-300 file versions, video/audio, etc.
My cars have USB drives, one car is stereo only and one is 5.1/4.0 and 2.0. I use 32GB thumb drives,17 and counting, color coded with a Google spread sheet of all the music (Band & Album titles) on all the thumb drives. I can access the spread sheet from my phone.
My car surround player (Cambridge CXU) and the stock car players don't play over 96Khz and don't play DSD or DSF files, in this case JRiver has a Reformat Tab, and I just change the file down if needed, takes about less than a minute to re-format to the cars ability.
Most of the time I just don't have time to listen to all the stereo extras in a given box set at home, so I listen to the stereo extras in the car.
I do have a SACD player but took that out of my electronic chain, just wasn't using it.
I still have a Blu Ray player, just because sometimes I get confused when ripping a Blu Ray as there are too many file choices, so I like to look at the menu to decide how I want to rip.
My SACD rips are done using Sonore software and a dedicated OPPO 105. Generally rip as DSD64 with a DSF file.
At home I have the Exasound external MCH DAC that reads all the files from the JRiver player in the native format. From the DAC I am 6 channels (RCA's) out to the 7.1 section in back of AVR.

For me as of this writing I am golden. Ripping all hard discs of any type and playback is actually too simple.
If company's go under like JRiver, or external disc players to PC stop being made I am screwed.
But according to the 5 pages of what I just read, there is the chance that any of us can be screwed if they take away what we are used to.

I have many youngsters in my family that listen to music all the time and it is phone to headphones or Carplay to cars or TV's. Surround is not even a consideration. Equipment to even listen to stereo is a hard sell, let alone surround equipment.

 

[cdheer]

DSD is a fairly impenetrable storage format, which IMNSHO, appealed to Sony when they were trying to figure out what might have been CD 2.0.

Ah, Sony. "Look, we know our previous proprietary formats, such as Minidisc, Memory Sticks, whatever the f*** the PSP was, and so on, didn't reach critical mass with consumers, but surely DSD will!"

Signed,

The owner of a Sony eMarker

 

[jimfisheye]

That people are entertaining recording from AV receiver speaker outputs back into a DAW to 'liberate' their Atmos encoded discs really speaks to how off putting Dolby is being with their decoder shenanigans! Of course you'd need to buy into an AVR with said decoder hidden inside to even do that.

I see 12 or 16 channel mixes being delivered in wavpack downloads sooner than later with that! Play stupid games and all...

Atmos is just 12 channel pcm digital. It's encoded by default with their formats and the decoder scarcity is the ringer with this.

Sony had their ringer with DSD. This one requires keeping a proprietary machine with an optical drive around and in service.

Everything else is just straight pcm digital. Anything 8 channels or less can use the open source flac format. The glass is more than half full here!

 

[DrKlahn]

We still have a plethora of turntables to buy brand new. As I said earlier, not really worried about there being a player I can buy to play discs.

 

[Sal1950]

I have many youngsters in my family that listen to music all the time and it is phone to headphones or Carplay to cars or TV's. Surround is not even a consideration. Equipment to even listen to stereo is a hard sell, let alone surround equipment.

That's a scary proposition for any future to the home reproduction of music as we know/knew it.
Stereo and Atmos, at least for the immediate future shows some legs for continuing life in with headphone crowd. Maybe I'm just an old man screaming at the clouds but I can't help believe they'll be much the poorer for it.

 

[marpow]

That's a scary proposition for any future to the home reproduction of music as we know/knew it.
Stereo and Atmos, at least for the immediate future shows some legs for continuing life in with headphone crowd. Maybe I'm just an old man screaming at the clouds but I can't help believe they'll be much the poorer for it.

Not to mention guaranteed Tinnitus. Well, what the heck I have it .

 

[Mr. Afternoon]

which IMNSHO, appealed to Sony when they were trying to figure out what might have been CD 2.0.

From what I remember, the whole choice for using DSD on the SACD was to allow for cheaper DACs to be implemented into consumer players, as 24-bit 96-kHz DACs were expensive at the time SACD development started...but by the time SACD launched the price difference was negligible.

 

[Mr. Afternoon]

No doubt that Sony had in mind not just better sound but a disc that could not be copied.

This was the reason for a lack of PC drive support...Sony even turned down Apple, who wanted to include an SACD player in every Mac!

 

[Mr. Afternoon]

We still have a plethora of turntables to buy brand new. As I said earlier, not really worried about there being a player I can buy to play discs.

That's true...but then I take a look over at the cassette realm, where there really isn't a new cassette deck with any sort of Dolby Noise Reduction...which is used on a LOT of cassette tapes.

 

[barfle]

From what I remember, the whole choice for using DSD on the SACD was to allow for cheaper DACs to be implemented into consumer players, as 24-bit 96-kHz DACs were expensive at the time SACD development started...but by the time SACD launched the price difference was negligible.

I had plenty of my own concerns when SACDs came out, so exactly what Sony had in mind wasn't in my area of knowledge. My delta modulator was about as bare-bones as you could get - an up/down counter, an R2R ladder, and a comparator. So, yeah, it was cheap, but only 8 bits. Audio through it was NOT great, but it was recognizable. Think 78RPM record quality. Maybe.

But it's still a minor player in the audio world. BDs have more capacity, and I'd be hard pressed to tell one from the other just by listening to the same material.