Karajan's 1975-1977 Beethoven Symphony Cycle coming to Blu-ray Audio...in Dolby Atmos
- Thread starter McCrutchy
- Start date
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Very much of the EMI house style of the time - a tight studio acoustic but with a realistic sense of space nonetheless. The Choral symphony is very impressive. These are excellent lyrical performances, Kempe was an underrated conductor without the bombast of Karajan.
I was listening to Beethoven's 6th yesterday from a 1958(?) recording conducted by Bruno Walter and when I played Karajan's 1963 (?) interpretation I think I felt the latter was more agressive. I've no idea about his 70's go at it though. Shame about the tape wow on the Walter conducted 5th.
McCrutchy
Well-known Member
I received my copy today. I haven't had a chance to listen yet, but outside of Dolby Atmos (for which I have no capability), I can confirm that this is a 2xBD-50 set, with Symphonies 1-5 on the first disc, and Symphonies 6-9 on the second disc. While I'm unable to personally confirm that Atmos is present, I do see the Dolby TrueHD 7.1 core, which is 48/24, and the DTS-HD MA 5.1 and LPCM 2.0 tracks, which are both 192/24. Below is the BDInfo scan for both discs.
The second Blu-ray also contains two audio interviews with Karajan--one in German and the other in English--that were originally included on a bonus LP in some versions of the 1977 vinyl box set. The release comes in a trifold digipak with a booklet (the same style as the Quadraphonic Blu-ray Audio of The Planets) that contains a mixture of black and white and color photographs and a text essay in German and English, although there appears to be significantly more photos and scholarship in the booklet that was included in the vinyl box set.
BDInfo scan:
The second Blu-ray also contains two audio interviews with Karajan--one in German and the other in English--that were originally included on a bonus LP in some versions of the 1977 vinyl box set. The release comes in a trifold digipak with a booklet (the same style as the Quadraphonic Blu-ray Audio of The Planets) that contains a mixture of black and white and color photographs and a text essay in German and English, although there appears to be significantly more photos and scholarship in the booklet that was included in the vinyl box set.
BDInfo scan:
Please note that my standalone version of BDInfo does not display Dolby Atmos metadata, so I only see the Dolby TrueHD core. As I do not have Atmos capability, I cannot personally verify that Dolby Atmos is present on the discs as advertised, though obviously, I assume it is.
This release contains no video content, only static menu screens with a selectable tracklist.
Disc 1: Symphonies 1-5
Disc 2: Symphonies 6-9
Das Interview - Herbert von Karajan im gespräch mit Joachim Kaiser
Karajan in conversation - Herbert von Karajan talks to Richard Osborne (presented in English, not German)
This release contains no video content, only static menu screens with a selectable tracklist.
Disc 1: Symphonies 1-5
Code:
Total Video
Title Codec Length Movie Size Disc Size Bitrate Bitrate Main Audio Track Secondary Audio Track
----- ------ ------- -------------- -------------- ------- ------- ------------------ ---------------------
00000.MPLS AVC 2:44:31 39,287,322,624 39,298,718,076 31.84 0.95 Dolby TrueHD 7.1 5408Kbps (48kHz/24-bit) DTS-HD Master 5.1 12704Kbps (192kHz/24-bit)
Code:
DISC INFO:
Disc Title: DGG_KARAJAN_BEETHOVEN_DISC1
Disc Size: 39,298,718,076 bytes
Protection: AACS
BD-Java: Yes
BDInfo: 0.5.8
PLAYLIST REPORT:
Name: 00000.MPLS
Length: 2:44:31.127 (h:m:s.ms)
Size: 39,287,322,624 bytes
Total Bitrate: 31.84 Mbps
VIDEO:
Codec Bitrate Description
----- ------- -----------
MPEG-4 AVC Video 950 kbps 1080i / 29.970 fps / 16:9 / High Profile 4.1
AUDIO:
Codec Language Bitrate Description
----- -------- ------- -----------
Dolby TrueHD Audio German 5408 kbps 7.1 / 48 kHz / 5408 kbps / 24-bit (AC3 Embedded: 5.1-EX / 48 kHz / 640 kbps)
DTS-HD Master Audio German 12704 kbps 5.1 / 192 kHz / 12704 kbps / 24-bit (DTS Core: 5.1 / 48 kHz / 1509 kbps / 24-bit)
LPCM Audio German 9216 kbps 2.0 / 192 kHz / 9216 kbps / 24-bit
FILES:
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---- ------- ------ ---- -------------
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Code:
Total Video
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----- ------ ------- -------------- -------------- ------- ------- ------------------ ---------------------
00000.MPLS AVC 2:44:01 39,009,165,312 44,580,758,644 31.71 0.95 Dolby TrueHD 7.1 5448Kbps (48kHz/24-bit) DTS-HD Master 5.1 12554Kbps (192kHz/24-bit)
Code:
DISC INFO:
Disc Title: DGG_KARAJAN_BEETHOVEN_DISC2
Disc Size: 44,580,758,644 bytes
Protection: AACS
BD-Java: Yes
BDInfo: 0.5.8
PLAYLIST REPORT:
Name: 00000.MPLS
Length: 2:44:01.531 (h:m:s.ms)
Size: 39,009,165,312 bytes
Total Bitrate: 31.71 Mbps
VIDEO:
Codec Bitrate Description
----- ------- -----------
MPEG-4 AVC Video 950 kbps 1080i / 29.970 fps / 16:9 / High Profile 4.1
AUDIO:
Codec Language Bitrate Description
----- -------- ------- -----------
Dolby TrueHD Audio German 5448 kbps 7.1 / 48 kHz / 5448 kbps / 24-bit (AC3 Embedded: 5.1-EX / 48 kHz / 640 kbps)
DTS-HD Master Audio German 12554 kbps 5.1 / 192 kHz / 12554 kbps / 24-bit (DTS Core: 5.1 / 48 kHz / 1509 kbps / 24-bit)
LPCM Audio German 9216 kbps 2.0 / 192 kHz / 9216 kbps / 24-bit
FILES:
Name Time In Length Size Total Bitrate
---- ------- ------ ---- -------------
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CHAPTERS:
Number Time In Length Avg Video Rate Max 1-Sec Rate Max 1-Sec Time Max 5-Sec Rate Max 5-Sec Time Max 10Sec Rate Max 10Sec Time Avg Frame Size Max Frame Size Max Frame Time
------ ------- ------ -------------- -------------- -------------- -------------- -------------- -------------- -------------- -------------- -------------- --------------
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---- --- ---- ----- -------- -------------- -------------- ------------- -----
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00003.M2TS 4354 (0x1102) 0x80 LPCM deu (German) 4021.284 9,223 4,635,841,100 25,736,800Das Interview - Herbert von Karajan im gespräch mit Joachim Kaiser
Code:
QUICK SUMMARY:
Disc Title: DGG_KARAJAN_BEETHOVEN_DISC2
Disc Size: 44,580,758,644 bytes
Protection: AACS
BD-Java: Yes
Playlist: 00001.MPLS
Size: 3,066,734,592 bytes
Length: 0:16:03.996
Total Bitrate: 25.45 Mbps
Video: MPEG-4 AVC Video / 21961 kbps / 1080i / 29.970 fps / 16:9 / High Profile 4.1
Audio: German / LPCM Audio / 2.0 / 48 kHz / 2304 kbps / 24-bitKarajan in conversation - Herbert von Karajan talks to Richard Osborne (presented in English, not German)
Code:
QUICK SUMMARY:
Disc Title: DGG_KARAJAN_BEETHOVEN_DISC2
Disc Size: 44,580,758,644 bytes
Protection: AACS
BD-Java: Yes
Playlist: 00002.MPLS
Size: 2,493,007,872 bytes
Length: 0:13:33.813
Total Bitrate: 24.51 Mbps
Video: MPEG-4 AVC Video / 21060 kbps / 1080i / 29.970 fps / 16:9 / High Profile 4.1
Audio: German / LPCM Audio / 2.0 / 48 kHz / 2304 kbps / 24-bit
- Joined
- Jan 9, 2013
- Messages
- 25,711
Would love your review of the Surround Sonics [discrete elements?] on these two BD~As. I have so many complete Beethoven Cycles, if this turns out to be ambience only, I will pass.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Mar 2, 2002
- Messages
- 4,242
Karajan recorded a Beethoven cycle for EMI in the early 50s, and I suspect didn't want to record another one with them so soon on the heels of his SG cycle from the early 60s.
While it didn't get a quad release at the time, this is also true quad:
Pentatone also released the quads of almost all of Kubelik's cycle for DG from the 70s, but never got to the 3rd before discontinuing their series.
Edit to add: Huh, it seems Masur's cycle has gone out of print. Also, the 2-SACD set of him and the Leipzig orchestra doing the overtures is also quite good.
It was released as CD4 in Japan by JVC, both as Symphonies single LPs and as a complete boxset. Also bootlegged in China.
Waiting to pull the trigger on this one. What does the Atmos add? A greater sense of the hall acoustics?
Just found this review on Amazon..
Most readers of this review are probably quite familiar with these renowned recordings, Karajan's second stereo Beethoven symphony cycle, so I won't bother to comment too much on the performances which are of classic status. The real buzz about this set is the remastering in LPCM surround and Dolby Atmos, a surround format that also provides overhead sound. Unfortunately, the liner notes say almost nothing about the remastering process or how surround sound was generated from a previously stereo recording. The ninth symphony has already been released in a surround SACD and was originally intended to be released as a quadrophonic recording back in the seventies. The real question is: has the Atmos surround ambience been faked with some kind of artificial reverb? DG tells us nothing in the booklet, but by this time in his recording career, Karajan was multi-miking recordings with the Berlin Philharmonic so that he could have more control over the final balance. I would imagine that a good multi-channel mix could plausibly be derived from the separate tracks. However it was finally done, the Atmos mix sounds quite good, with a hint of overhead ambience, but, at least on my system, not overkill. In fact, it opens up what I've always felt to be a congested, rather flat, untextured stereo mix. The 5.1 track is a little too wide for my taste, but the Atmos track renders a more natural, pleasing sound stage. The recording sounds more detailed and textured, and the masses of violins sound less shrill than on the original, though not as warm as on a more modern recording. Despite the tender loving care these mixes have received from DG engineers, they still sound a little dated. Karajan's wall of strings sometimes sounded a bit mushed as a result, making his Beethoven distinctly Karajan/Beethoven. This is big orchestra Beethoven, just what historically informed directors today try to avoid,; however, it is a classic of the period and includes some white hot music making. If you are equipped for Dolby Atmos and like Karajan's way with Ludwig, by all means buy this, especially for the price! The remix has been well executed. To my ears, it has significantly improved the listening experience. When you move from stereo to multi-channel, inevitable variables multiply the obstacles in trying to successfully duplicate the intentions of the engineers on your own system. On my DefTech ProCinema 1000 speaker system with add on Atmos upfiring speakers in my acoustically challenged listening space, this blu-ray delivers an exciting, somewhat broader than original listening experience. The ninth, especially, is among the very best available.
Most readers of this review are probably quite familiar with these renowned recordings, Karajan's second stereo Beethoven symphony cycle, so I won't bother to comment too much on the performances which are of classic status. The real buzz about this set is the remastering in LPCM surround and Dolby Atmos, a surround format that also provides overhead sound. Unfortunately, the liner notes say almost nothing about the remastering process or how surround sound was generated from a previously stereo recording. The ninth symphony has already been released in a surround SACD and was originally intended to be released as a quadrophonic recording back in the seventies. The real question is: has the Atmos surround ambience been faked with some kind of artificial reverb? DG tells us nothing in the booklet, but by this time in his recording career, Karajan was multi-miking recordings with the Berlin Philharmonic so that he could have more control over the final balance. I would imagine that a good multi-channel mix could plausibly be derived from the separate tracks. However it was finally done, the Atmos mix sounds quite good, with a hint of overhead ambience, but, at least on my system, not overkill. In fact, it opens up what I've always felt to be a congested, rather flat, untextured stereo mix. The 5.1 track is a little too wide for my taste, but the Atmos track renders a more natural, pleasing sound stage. The recording sounds more detailed and textured, and the masses of violins sound less shrill than on the original, though not as warm as on a more modern recording. Despite the tender loving care these mixes have received from DG engineers, they still sound a little dated. Karajan's wall of strings sometimes sounded a bit mushed as a result, making his Beethoven distinctly Karajan/Beethoven. This is big orchestra Beethoven, just what historically informed directors today try to avoid,; however, it is a classic of the period and includes some white hot music making. If you are equipped for Dolby Atmos and like Karajan's way with Ludwig, by all means buy this, especially for the price! The remix has been well executed. To my ears, it has significantly improved the listening experience. When you move from stereo to multi-channel, inevitable variables multiply the obstacles in trying to successfully duplicate the intentions of the engineers on your own system. On my DefTech ProCinema 1000 speaker system with add on Atmos upfiring speakers in my acoustically challenged listening space, this blu-ray delivers an exciting, somewhat broader than original listening experience. The ninth, especially, is among the very best available.
regnaD kciN
New member
- Joined
- Oct 31, 2013
- Messages
- 7
Just got in a copy of this...only to find disc 1 to be unplayable. 
- Joined
- Jan 9, 2013
- Messages
- 25,711
I decided to PASS on the von Karajan Atmos Beethoven remasters as first of all, I'm NOT equipped for ATMOS and secondly I do have some of those performances on hi res Audio Discs.
If you are truly seeking idiosyncratic interpretations of Beethoven's Nine Symphonies in ultra discrete 5.1, TACET Records, having finally recorded all nine conducted by Wojciech Rajski and the Polish Chamber Philharmonic Orchestra, has finally released them on 3 BD~A discs.
Review from HR~Audio.net w/review and ordering links: https://www.hraudio.net/showmusic.php?title=11535#reviews
A most interesting review of this TACET BD~A set from an AmazonUK verified purchaser:
5.0 out of 5 stars A very important addition to the recorded catalogue of Beethoven symphonies
5 April 2019
Format: Blu-ray AudioVerified Purchase
I have over one hundred complete sets of the Beethoven symphonies.This one is outstanding and deserves much better currency than it has received. It has been reviewed favourably, mainly in the audiophile press but overall, I do not believe that its musical significance has been adequately represented.
Of course, there are many traversals of the Beethoven symphonies both of complete sets and of individual performances that have justly stood the test the test of time, in some cases over many decades. This set deserves to join the company of those celebrated recordings.
The elegance, subtlety, delicacy, transparency and colour in Beethoven is often missed or underplayed. Weingartner captures those qualities and so too Toscanini in many of his recordings. Rajski does the same.
Beethoven did represent a departure from Haydn but it was one that was far from complete. I think that Rajski makes that point once again, as did Weingartner and Toscanini before him. Like them, he treats his woodwinds, brass and tympani on an equal footing with his strings. So his sound is not an homogenised mass but rather an integrated collaboration that results in colour and the revelation of important compositional detail.
Rajski, aided by superb audio engineering, manages to convey an amazing range and gradation of dynamics. That is important from the point of view of demonstrating some of the complexity of Beethoven's scoring.
Furtwangler was an absolute genius in capturing Beethoven's almost cosmological profundity. Rajski's readings are profound but his approach is rather different.
These are very balanced interpretations that clearly have entailed very deep reflection on what Beethoven's music means. Weingartner, Toscanini, Furtwangler, Von Karajan (1962), Monteux, Leibowitz, Bernstein and others have been justly lauded. Rajski deserves to join the ranks of those who have had uniquely important things to say about Beethoven's symphonies.
If you are truly seeking idiosyncratic interpretations of Beethoven's Nine Symphonies in ultra discrete 5.1, TACET Records, having finally recorded all nine conducted by Wojciech Rajski and the Polish Chamber Philharmonic Orchestra, has finally released them on 3 BD~A discs.
Review from HR~Audio.net w/review and ordering links: https://www.hraudio.net/showmusic.php?title=11535#reviews
A most interesting review of this TACET BD~A set from an AmazonUK verified purchaser:
5.0 out of 5 stars A very important addition to the recorded catalogue of Beethoven symphonies
5 April 2019
Format: Blu-ray AudioVerified Purchase
I have over one hundred complete sets of the Beethoven symphonies.This one is outstanding and deserves much better currency than it has received. It has been reviewed favourably, mainly in the audiophile press but overall, I do not believe that its musical significance has been adequately represented.
Of course, there are many traversals of the Beethoven symphonies both of complete sets and of individual performances that have justly stood the test the test of time, in some cases over many decades. This set deserves to join the company of those celebrated recordings.
The elegance, subtlety, delicacy, transparency and colour in Beethoven is often missed or underplayed. Weingartner captures those qualities and so too Toscanini in many of his recordings. Rajski does the same.
Beethoven did represent a departure from Haydn but it was one that was far from complete. I think that Rajski makes that point once again, as did Weingartner and Toscanini before him. Like them, he treats his woodwinds, brass and tympani on an equal footing with his strings. So his sound is not an homogenised mass but rather an integrated collaboration that results in colour and the revelation of important compositional detail.
Rajski, aided by superb audio engineering, manages to convey an amazing range and gradation of dynamics. That is important from the point of view of demonstrating some of the complexity of Beethoven's scoring.
Furtwangler was an absolute genius in capturing Beethoven's almost cosmological profundity. Rajski's readings are profound but his approach is rather different.
These are very balanced interpretations that clearly have entailed very deep reflection on what Beethoven's music means. Weingartner, Toscanini, Furtwangler, Von Karajan (1962), Monteux, Leibowitz, Bernstein and others have been justly lauded. Rajski deserves to join the ranks of those who have had uniquely important things to say about Beethoven's symphonies.
Last edited:
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- Jan 12, 2017
- Messages
- 786
This is the reason that I am re-installing my ATMOS system. Music in the Round #97: Hegel C53 and DSPeaker Anti-Mode X4 Recordings in the RoundNow THIS is weird.
It looks like Deutsche Grammophon will release Herbert von Karajan's Beethoven Symphonies (1975-1977) on Blu-ray Audio, with a Dolby Atmos remix:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07H62PFS4
Clearly, this will be a remix, and there is no indication yet of how many channels will be utilized, but the safe bet is that it could be Dolby Atmos 7.1.4 with a Dolby TrueHD 7.1 core. Also, I don't believe Dolby has figured out how to go beyond 48/24 with Atmos, so high-resolution is not on the cards unless there is a secondary dedicated 5.1 or 2.0 mix.
Interestingly, this cycle was recently released on SHM-SACD in Japan from new 2018 DSD masters, so I assume that those are being converted and used here. A similar situation seems to be happening with Karl Böhm's 46 Mozart Symphonies, which were released as a Blu-ray Audio / CD set this past summer, and were just announced for release on SHM-SACD in December.
More information from the listing at Presto Classical:
Gorgeous listening room!
Is your system a 9.1.4?
- Joined
- Jan 12, 2017
- Messages
- 786
Thank you, the sofa looks good but is very hard.Lol.
- Joined
- Jan 12, 2017
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- 786
Actually, with Denon Marantz, I prefer 5 plus wides no sub all full range, and the surround channel is split among 4 speakers in parallel, this eliminates focal points, the Dolby Director in the picture that launched atmos to the world actually liked the setup.
What is surprising is all the sound that wraps around the back of the room and the rear height, where there are no speakers.
Gmat25
Senior Member
I also have the Barenboim/Berliner Staatscapelle DVDA's and really enjoy them!
The Barenboim DVD-A cycle is still the best Beethoven cycle recorded in high-res/multichannel - unless you want an active mix. Barenboim can be hit or miss, but this one hits hard, and the playing is excellent.
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