King Crimson - Heaven & Earth box set (18CD / 4 BD-A / 2 DVD-A)

[Marplot]

thanks for the information, email sent.

 

[~dave~~wave~]

Got the code this morning.
(From the lovely Iona Singleton, who I got to say hello to in Denver, where she organized the celebration package.)

The files download from the existing DGM music for purchase site, the code pays the $129.50 price for 121 files in ten folders.

Immediately this morning a shf member noticed that rather that flac with metadata, the files are wav 48/24 with no metadata .
Except for the first track of the first file, which is flac, like everything else on DGM.

 

[François]

So, IIRC, the problem on the blu-ray was that they used 44.1kHz CD masters, as if they were 48kHz (because blu-ray can't do 44.1), hence the speed-up. I hope they used hi-rez studio masters for the corrected files, not the 44.1kHz CD masters upsampled to 48kHz…

 

[Plan9]

So, IIRC, the problem on the blu-ray was that they used 44.1kHz CD masters, as if they were 48kHz (because blu-ray can't do 44.1), hence the speed-up. I hope they used hi-rez studio masters for the corrected files, not the 44.1kHz CD masters upsampled to 48kHz…

The thing is, most of these original masters are 16bit/44.1kHz.
Some of them were mastered in 24bit resolution for this edition. The problem came as you wrote from the original sample rate (44.1kHz) they forgot to convert for Blu-Ray compatibility (48kHz).

 

[François]

So what’s the point of upsampled files? Every player that can play music files will play any sample rate, and it’s not like us consumers will author a blu-ray from these files. (Are there even any good consumer grade blu-ray authoring software available?)

 

[Plan9]

So what’s the point of upsampled files? Every player that can play music files will play any sample rate, and it’s not like us consumers will author a blu-ray from these files. (Are there even any good consumer grade blu-ray authoring software available?)

My understanding is that they are offering what should have been placed on the Blu-Rays originally.
Had they offered 44.1kHz files, someone else would have complained. They made a choice.
Plus, believe or not, some people plan to author a corrected Blu-Ray (or DVDs) with these files.

 

[kap'n krunch]

As seen on the DGM Facebook page:
"DGM recently announced that replacement downloads are now available for those albums in the “Heaven & Earth” boxed set, which, due to a mistake by the BluRay author, sadly played at the wrong speed. This has led to renewed online discussion about the merits or otherwise of replacement discs versus downloads. As promised, here is a philosophical consideration of the fundamental issues which this raises..."
(CAPS mine)
Can you believe the brass cojones on this guy?
YES DAVID, WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME SOMETHING WAS YOUR FAULT?
Some members here know that this was a mistake from MANAGEMENT who did not pass the correct info...it even went unnoticed by the battery of testers..
AND THIS is how he repays them?..oooo, instant karma gonna get him....
Funny how DGM is always "fighting" against wrongdoings by the music industry yet they act the same f*cking way....

I guess that "we made a mistake" is too much for David Singleton....

 

[~dave~~wave~]

Can you believe the brass cojones on this guy?

Yeah, I can, actually.
Needs them to put up with b.s.
Anyone who thinks he can do better is free to start his own record company.

https://www.dgmlive.com/diaries/David Singleton/replacement-discs-versus-downloads

Replacement discs versus downloads
DGM recently announced that replacement downloads are now available for those albums in the “Heaven & Earth” boxed set, which, due to a mistake by the BluRay author, sadly played at the wrong speed. This has led to renewed online discussion about the merits or otherwise of replacement discs versus downloads. As promised, here is a philosophical consideration of the fundamental issues which this raises

The very quick and simple version: you can either charge the maximum retail price that the contents of your box will justify - thus earning very large profits more than sufficient to cover unexpected costs - or you can fill a boxed set to bursting with wonderful goodies, while keeping it more generally affordable, but not have such luxury.

You can approach the music business through the prism of business or the prism of music.

A boxed set, viewed through the prism of business, may well be excellent – but it would be designed around the profit motive ie. it would only contain sufficient music to justify the price tag and the work involved. To put it differently, a boxed set with eighteen CDs, four BluRays, and two DVDAs would only be made if it was going to be significantly more profitable than one with fewer contents. A quick search on Amazon would suggest that, by that judgement, “Heaven & Earth” is either under-priced by about £100. Or, more likely, the price is right, but it should contain less music.

A boxed set, viewed through the prism of music, is designed entirely differently. It is an opportunity to share with music lovers all the music that falls within the remit of that box. Thus, every year, we start with a list of the music that we believe a box might contain. Having completed that list, we inevitably find other items, and we spend as much as six months working very hard to make ourselves poorer. The selling price of the box does not increase due to the increased work or content. There is a market value above which a boxed set becomes largely the remit of wealthy collectors and would thus fail to achieve its main purpose. With each added disc, particularly BluRays or DVDs, the profitably continues to fall sharply, as the third-party authoring and manufacturing costs rise inexorably.

None of us make any complaint about this or would have it any other way. Money is, of course, important, but if it were the defining principle, all of us within DGM would long since have moved on to more lucrative pastures. The purpose of the work has to be the music. Commerce is the necessary fuel to make it happen. This may seem loft idealism. But it is also practical. I suspect that many of those who faithfully buy our products would also long since have moved on were it not for the ethos that underpins them.

To operate in the marketplace while being free of the values of the marketplace

To help bring music into the world which would otherwise be unlikely to do so.

Thus, in the case of the Heaven & Earth boxed set, we can proudly create a boxed set that contains over 7,000 minutes of music in all the various formats. A figure that bears repeating. Seven thousand minutes. That is over one hundred hours. Or more than nine days spent listening continuously for twelve hours. A triumph by all those involved.

Of all this music, frustratingly and annoyingly, ten items play at the wrong speed – hence the downloads from the site. One might think that the remaining ninety hours (far in excess, I suspect, of any of our previous boxes) together with the printed contents more than justified the purchase price.

Apparently not. Any relationship mediated by commerce is necessarily problematic. Consumers have perceived rights. In the case of concerts, this may mean that they have the right to take photographs. In the case of the boxed set, it means that they have the right to a replacement disc.

Except that replacement discs do not exist. The boxed set has never been re-manufactured, nor is it likely to be. The cost of replacement discs (authoring and manufacturing 16,000 BluRays, and then paying someone to receive requests and mail out discs to 8,000 people worldwide) would realistically be close to £100,000.

So in practice the request for replacement discs is a request that not only do we spend up to six months making these boxes, we now actually lose money in doing so, even if the fault is not our own. Hardly a sustainable business model. Indeed, some of the abusive emails that I have received inevitably make me question any future boxed sets. The innocent joy of polishing treasures in the belief that you are sharing them with those best able to appreciate them is long gone.

Contrary to what some of them believe, I bear no malice towards music fans on the audiophile forums who uncovered the error. Indeed, it is fortunate that they did (and we would always want to know of any error that someone finds). But the apparently joyful “treasure hunt” that it became, where “fans” were congratulating each other on finding some new timing error, often by ripping the music and comparing times in a computer rather than listening, did become distasteful. Before we reached the question of the sometimes vociferous and aggressive demands for replacement discs.

After the seemingly endless hours that have been devoted to this, one feels like screaming “what do you want us to do?!”. And the answer is simple – some people want their replacement disc no matter what. Or alternatively, they accept that it is, of course, completely unfeasible for everyone to have a replacement, but they want to be an exception, and have one made just for them.

Actions have repercussions. Faced with the same last-minute decision to re-author a BluRay to add bonus albums, we would now almost certainly decline. It takes valuable time and money, adds nothing to the selling price and increases the chances of errors. We have learnt the hard way that people do not thank you for adding the bonus content – they complain loudly about the mistake.

But what of even larger decisions? Whether, for example, to add an additional BluRay so that a new discovery can be added in higher resolution or in surround sound. Seen through the values of the marketplace, only a fool would do more work to make a boxed set less profitable, and, by increasing the content, again increase the likelihood of an error. And it seems those values are increasingly being forced upon us.

I am of course angry that there were errors in the Heaven & Earth boxed set. I am particularly angry on behalf of all those who worked so hard to create it that we are not celebrating and remembering an astonishing musical triumph, but endlessly discussing a third-party authoring error. And yes, I am angry on behalf of the fans that they do not have the perfect boxed set, which we all worked so hard to give them. But right now, I am even more angry that those who continue to insist on replacement discs rather than downloads may force us into a position where DGM can no longer be true to its business aims.

To operate in the marketplace while being free of the values of the marketplace

To help bring music into the world which would otherwise be unlikely to do so.

Both things are only possible with goodwill from those at DGM, but also with matching goodwill and understanding from music lovers. Just as concert goers who insist on their perceived rights can ruin a concert (and did, in fact, drive Robert Fripp to cease live performance in 2008) so if purchasers force the values of the marketplace upon us, then it will no longer be possible to bring music into the world in this way.

This question of the replacement discs is therefore surprisingly fundamental.

 

[rusinurbe]

I say never look a gift horse ...
They needn't have offer the remedy at all thankfully the have (And yes I have taken advantage and downloaded) I'll stick the FLAC Fines on a memory stick and find somewhere to put it in the box preferably.

I am sure its as frustrating for them this error has occurred and has been missed by the product testers, the blu ray authors, manufacturers and even DGM themselves.

DGM are a small company and have offered a solution there are some larger companies who probably would not have done anything about this. Yes its taken some time but from what I have seen everyone just about involved in this has been involved in the tour and other 50th Anniversary stuff (There has been plenty of KC releases this year)

I am happy with the outcome. (For the record I would not have noticed the problem the benefit I guess of not having perfect pitch or golden ears )

 

[François]

I’m still puzzled how such an error can occur. Do professional blu-ray authoring software let you use 44.1 files without giving an error, or offering to upsample them to 48kHz? Or did they used raw binary files without an header that indicates the sample rate?

 

[Marplot]

got my downloads. All of the files were wav. A quick run through sox and I have corrected 48k flac ready for tagging.

 

[marpow]

Just got my set yesterday. It is MASSIVE!
So much stuff. Can't wait to listen to the 5.1 mixes

Got on a little King Crimson kick today. Regarding Heaven and Earth, I read about the faster speed discs, I really don't care, no way would I ever be able to tell or be concerned.
But, I guess even though I own the box set, I didn't realize how truly massive it is, I ripped the CD's and only one of the 5.1 recordings, not sure why, but looks like I have some work to catch up on.

 

[4-earredwonder]

Got on a little King Crimson kick today. Regarding Heaven and Earth, I read about the faster speed discs, I really don't care, no way would I ever be able to tell or be concerned.
But, I guess even though I own the box set, I didn't realize how truly massive it is, I ripped the CD's and only one of the 5.1 recordings, not sure why, but looks like I have some work to catch up on.

Better watch it Markie or one day VG will download you and place your physical persona in permanent storage!

 

[Plan9]

Got on a little King Crimson kick today. Regarding Heaven and Earth, I read about the faster speed discs, I really don't care, no way would I ever be able to tell or be concerned.
But, I guess even though I own the box set, I didn't realize how truly massive it is, I ripped the CD's and only one of the 5.1 recordings, not sure why, but looks like I have some work to catch up on.

The change in speed and pitch is very noticeable if you know how it's supposed to sound. DGM sent download links with the correct versions on demand. I have them if you want to hear them.

 

[jimfisheye]

I’m still puzzled how such an error can occur. Do professional blu-ray authoring software let you use 44.1 files without giving an error, or offering to upsample them to 48kHz? Or did they used raw binary files without an header that indicates the sample rate?

No bluray authoring app should allow 44.1. This sample rate is curiously not supported by the bluray format. Looks like they good old fashioned screwed up. Someone would have had to do something like ignore the header and import as raw pcm and then make the wrong call on the sample rate. That suggests someone in the process was sloppy? I don't know all authoring apps though. Maybe there's a bug or faux pas that lets something like this slip through in one of them.

I read about the faster speed discs, I really don't care, no way would I ever be able to tell or be concerned.

You would have, actually. It's not subtle!
Not quite "Robert and the Chipmunks" but it's half way there.

I'm giving these guys the benefit of the doubt though. They consider their live recordings as part of their output and police the internets of fan shared live recordings. And they actually follow through and put enormous effort into making their live recordings professional and presentable! They actually follow through and offer very well presented live recordings to fans. Almost no one else does this and no one on this level. Everyone else says "Don't tape us and share it! It's our property!" and then they offer fans absolutely nothing for any price. (Pink Floyd comes to mind.)
I'm giving these guys a pass on this one.

I had all those CDs anyway.

I have to say though, I'm still disappointed on the Heaven And Earth 5.1 remix missing from this set! It was literally the album I was most looking forward to hearing reworked in surround. Oh, and The Reconstruction of Light flat out doesn't work and sounds really awkward. Sucks that they lost the original drum tracks. Pat is amazing and there are some moments but... This set ends up being very light on surround material.

The Project 3 and Project 4 recordings have been in high rotation. The Bootleg TV disc too.

 

[quicksrt]

The "data tape" is the multitracks.
The album was recorded digitally on the ADAT format (except the drums), then the original electronic drum parts were recorded directly in a DAW. This original drums session was lost when the original producer died. So Pat Mastelotto took the opportunity to re-record his drum parts for this remix.

I found the album (recorded at Ade's home studio in Nashville) to be a very flawed recording and mix job. A full remix with new drums (likely recorded much better) and remixed by a new team absolutely essential to bring this album up to the normally high Crim standards. I'd previously found it unalienable after one play - hearing it upon release.

So good for Pat to get a second chance, and the RF and band to get this as good as it can be years after the fact. I still don't care for the material, but at least it should sound a lot better now.

 

[Plan9]

I have to say though, I'm still disappointed on the Heaven And Earth 5.1 remix missing from this set! It was literally the album I was most looking forward to hearing reworked in surround. Oh, and The Reconstruction of Light flat out doesn't work and sounds really awkward. Sucks that they lost the original drum tracks. Pat is amazing and there are some moments but... This set ends up being very light on surround material.

I don't know but it's possible that they don't have the multis for Heaven & Earth.

 

[jimfisheye]

I don't know but it's possible that they don't have the multis for Heaven & Earth.

Yeah, maybe that was on Ken's computer too?
This one was a Pat M production though. And they seemed to find the source for the one duplicated track that appears as a bonus track on TCOL. We can only speculate. They didn't mention why it was dropped. It occurs to me that maybe the original announcement was in error too. But they mentioned it specifically and named the box Heaven & Earth so... something happened.

Heaven & Earth was the main release from this group/period and TCOL was a flawed bonus IMHO.

 

[pti]

So, I just got my download code. My query regarding whether they'd consider having the authoring shop, which was blamed for the error, create a downloadable BD ISO that could at least be burned by the customers as a replacement disc, were ignored.

Is anyone familiar enough with BD authoring to know whether these downloads could be swapped in to a ripped BD folder such that a corrected ISO could be created and burned?

 

[ProgRules]

Everyone else says "Don't tape us and share it! It's our property!" and then they offer fans absolutely nothing for any price.

You're forgetting the originals who encouraged fan taping and sharing, to the point where they had dedicated taper sections (and a well-known ploy to plug into the sound board, by offering to make it snow...). The Dead were happy to have their live music shared- and for quite a while now have been offering excellent products of many of their shows that had high quality recordings.

In fact, they're probably the only band that can compete with KC in the size, thoroughness and quality of live boxsets. And I think GD gets the nod as overall winner, though that's certainly subjective.