King Crimson "Islands" - MLP Vs DTS

[Degrundt]

Hi folks, sorry if my post may be inappropriate or displaced but i have a question about the MLP format on these KC 40th éditions.

My BD player is not compliant with the DVD audio format.

IS this lossless MLP signal really superior to DTS with 55 aging ears...

Thanks by advance.

Ron from France.

PS : Sorry for my syntax errors

 

[himey]

IS this lossless MLP signal really superior to DTS with 55 aging ears...

DVD DTS sound good. CD DTS, not as much. I listened to 5.1 Young Americans from DVD converted to FLAC today, and it sounded great with my 4 new speakers I got over the summer off Facebook marketplace.

 

[wavelength]

Hi folks, sorry if my post may be inappropriate or displaced but i have a question about the MLP format on these KC 40th éditions.

My BD player is not compliant with the DVD audio format.

IS this lossless MLP signal really superior to DTS with 55 aging ears...

Thanks by advance.

Ron from France.

PS : Sorry for my syntax errors

Well I have 71 year old ears and I still prefer dvd-audio very much over dts. In my books it's got to be lossless.

 

[himey]

Well I have 71 year old ears and I still prefer dvd-audio very much over dts. In my books it's got to be lossless.

I can't imagine not listening to Young Americans. I feel sorry for you and the other snobs here. I am enjoying Jasmine Nightdreams now on DTS CD. Sounds better than most lossless albums because the mix is great.

 

[wavelength]

I can't imagine not listening to Young Americans. I feel sorry for you and the other snobs here. I am enjoying Jasmine Nightdreams now on DTS CD. Sounds better than most lossless albums because the mix is great.

I'm not that familiar with your examples but I'll assume that you don't have a choice of formats - only DTS is offered.

Ron from France was referring to the King Crimson series where both DTS and DVD-audio are available. Are you trying to say that you would choose DTS over DVD-audio?

 

[Degrundt]

Thanks for your answers. In fact, i find the DTS versions very pleasant. I was wondering if i miss really something to be not able to play the MLP lossless tracks.
Ron.

 

[himey]

Thanks for your answers. In fact, i find the DTS versions very pleasant. I was wondering if i miss really something to be not able to play the MLP lossless tracks.
Ron.

Lossless does sound better but the mix quality is 100x more important. If the mix is poor lossless can't make it sound better. A good mix will sound good in any format. DTS-CD is the worse format for multichannel but can still sound good if the mix is great. KC Islands is an excellent mix.

 

[jimfisheye]

This remix really is excellent and gives this album a kick in the pants it really needed!

Agreed that mix work counts 99.999% almost no matter how butchering the delivery format might be! Yeah, you'll hear a difference if you A/B the lossless and lossy copies. If you go to a show and get 10th row... that's a good seat. But 3rd row is better and front row is better still. Are you going to get stubborn and say "No. Keep your front row ticket. I think 10th row is better!" Of course you're not. You're not going to lose any enjoyment lamenting not being front row either but let's not be silly the other direction. That's all. I kind of relate fidelity and generation loss to good/better/best seats for a live show like that. Good seats are good seats, right?

The reprise of Drop In in the reworked The Letters is greatness in this mix!

 

[Degrundt]

This remix really is excellent and gives this album a kick in the pants it really needed!

Agreed that mix work counts 99.999% almost no matter how butchering the delivery format might be! Yeah, you'll hear a difference if you A/B the lossless and lossy copies. If you go to a show and get 10th row... that's a good seat. But 3rd row is better and front row is better still. Are you going to get stubborn and say "No. Keep your front row ticket. I think 10th row is better!" Of course you're not. You're not going to lose any enjoyment lamenting not being front row either but let's not be silly the other direction. That's all. I kind of relate fidelity and generation loss to good/better/best seats for a live show like that. Good seats are good seats, right?

The reprise of Drop In in the reworked The Letters is greatness in this mix!

Ok, I think I'm going to look for a compliant player...

 

[edisonbaggins]

This remix really is excellent and gives this album a kick in the pants it really needed!

Agreed that mix work counts 99.999% almost no matter how butchering the delivery format might be! Yeah, you'll hear a difference if you A/B the lossless and lossy copies. If you go to a show and get 10th row... that's a good seat. But 3rd row is better and front row is better still. Are you going to get stubborn and say "No. Keep your front row ticket. I think 10th row is better!" Of course you're not. You're not going to lose any enjoyment lamenting not being front row either but let's not be silly the other direction. That's all. I kind of relate fidelity and generation loss to good/better/best seats for a live show like that. Good seats are good seats, right?

The reprise of Drop In in the reworked The Letters is greatness in this mix!

I prefer to be directly in front of the mixing board for the best sound, but I’m glad you enjoy the front row.

 

[Degrundt]

I prefer to be directly in front of the mixing board for the best sound, but I’m glad you enjoy the front row.

Depends on sound engineer alcoohol consumption believe me...

 

[ssully]

Hi folks, sorry if my post may be inappropriate or displaced but i have a question about the MLP format on these KC 40th éditions.

My BD player is not compliant with the DVD audio format.

IS this lossless MLP signal really superior to DTS with 55 aging ears...

No.

DTS is an excellent lossy compression codec. No one is doing level matched double blind tests of it versus lossless, which is the only way to demonstrate an audible difference at normal listening levels.

So take all such claims to that effect, with a giant chunk of salt.

 

[Degrundt]

No.

DTS is an excellent lossy compression codec. No one is doing level matched double blind tests of it versus lossless, which is the only way to demonstrate an audible difference at normal listening levels.

So take all such claims to that effect, with a giant chunk of salt.

Thanks for this objective and honest answer. My aging ears will surely gives you reason .
Ron.

 

[jimfisheye]

No.

DTS is an excellent lossy compression codec. No one is doing level matched double blind tests of it versus lossless, which is the only way to demonstrate an audible difference at normal listening levels.

So take all such claims to that effect, with a giant chunk of salt.

There are a batch of dts encoded masters that sound dull or worse that launched the stereotype. I think in hindsight this is another case of multiple variables. The format might be lossy and you might be able to call out the difference in a proper A/B test. But the stereotype of pronounced dull or worse sound actually came more from botched mastering or the mixes themselves.

@Degrundt, software ripping and playing leads to the most solutions and the most frugal/efficient solutions. And then interfacing your existing devices and computer without starting over buying stuff. Start looking there before buying new hardware disc players.

 

[artwwweb]

@Degrundt, I listen to MLP when it's offered, but DTS is still excellent. There are many releases that are only on DTS DVD (e.g. the Jethro Tull ones) and people are usually very happy with the sound.

One alternative you could consider, as jimfisheye mentions, is ripping your discs. Too much to go into here, but it means you can rip an MLP disc (and many other types) to flac and play back lossless without the need for an MLP player. It can be some work to set up but gives you a lot of flexibility if you have your surround collection as digital files. See HomerJAU's excellent thread here: https://www.quadraphonicquad.com/forums/threads/converting-mch-discs-101-overview.22384/

 

[jimfisheye]

Those Tull discs are not straight dts. They're dts2496. This is lossy but it's some kind of hair away from full lossless bandwidth. We've done null tests against lossless copies (where both are available) and they null down to the noise floor against each other. We've also demonstrated that the format flails when only 'core' decoded by legacy hardware players or older software. It's a ringer for that actually and the legacy decode sounds audibly degraded or damaged. Proper decode of dts2496 and standard dts don't have any degraded or damaged character.

This is another example where using the computer lets you choose all the right software and gives you more direct access to the music files.

 

[Degrundt]

@Degrundt, I listen to MLP when it's offered, but DTS is still excellent. There are many releases that are only on DTS DVD (e.g. the Jethro Tull ones) and people are usually very happy with the sound.

One alternative you could consider, as jimfisheye mentions, is ripping your discs. Too much to go into here, but it means you can rip an MLP disc (and many other types) to flac and play back lossless without the need for an MLP player. It can be some work to set up but gives you a lot of flexibility if you have your surround collection as digital files. See HomerJAU's excellent thread here: https://www.quadraphonicquad.com/forums/threads/converting-mch-discs-101-overview.22384/

Thanks for the link ;-)

 

[ssully]

There are a batch of dts encoded masters that sound dull or worse that launched the stereotype.

Dull compared to what? I'm talking about the same surround master mix, in lossless or DTS encoded

The only audible difference due to encoding might be the LFE content, which might or might not have a 120 Hz bandwidth cutoff on the DTS. But, many AVRs also enforce such a filter on LFE anyway, in which case, no audible difference.

 

[ssully]

Those Tull discs are not straight dts. They're dts2496. This is lossy but it's some kind of hair away from full lossless bandwidth. We've done null tests against lossless copies (where both are available) and they null down to the noise floor against each other. We've also demonstrated that the format flails when only 'core' decoded by legacy hardware players or older software. It's a ringer for that actually and the legacy decode sounds audibly degraded or damaged. Proper decode of dts2496 and standard dts don't have any degraded or damaged character.

'standard' DTS = 'core'. It decodes to 48/24 PCM. It shouldn't have a 'degraded' sound because again, DTS is an excellent psychoacoustic codec.

Listening to the null difference signal is not a valid way to determine whether the encoding is audible, as good encoding relies on psychoacoustic masking phenomena, which occur only when the whole signal is presented.

 

[ssully]

This remix really is excellent and gives this album a kick in the pants it really needed!

Agreed that mix work counts 99.999% almost no matter how butchering the delivery format might be! Yeah, you'll hear a difference if you A/B the lossless and lossy copies.

Will you now? If you level match, compare blind, and audition at normal listening level?