HiRez Poll Lennon, John - GIMME SOME TRUTH (The Ultimate Remixes) [Blu-Ray Audio (Dolby Atmos)]

[Albert Dagger]

This one is Woman, front channels only. The volume difference here was 9.58dB. DD, top and DTS, bottom (you can see that because of peak limiting). Again I don't like the DD 5.1. The kick drum and the snare drum are too punchy, the mix is bass heavy. The DTS is better, maybe less dynamic?



Here's the rear channels (level-matched based on the front speakers RMS, so 9.58dB). As usual, the DD is louder than the DTS on the rear channels. Similarly to Instant Karma, I hear drums, bass and John's vocals throughout the song. It's unbalanced for me, it shouldn't be that loud. The DTS is better, with reverb/ambience and backing vocals louder than the other bits.

The curious thing is that these are not identical even when they are played back at the same volume (to do so, I had to raise the DTS by another 4.9dB). So there are still more drums and bass on the DD when the rear channels are played back at the same volume.



I don't have time now to compare more tracks, but I think that breaking down the front and rear channels helped me understand what happens in each mix. In a way, it confirms what I'm hearing in 5.1. I don't mind the rear channels being louder, it's good, but they shouldn't have so much vocals, drums and bass, otherwise what's the difference between front and rear channels? I stand with my previous comments. The DTS 5.1 is the way to go for me, even though it's mixed conservatively for the first half of the compilation. I think the second half is much better. I'm not even sure there is consensus on which one is better. Hope this helps.

 

[Albert Dagger]

Now I can't stop comparing the DTS 5.1 and the DD 5.1 . Another couple of notes, without waveforms.

Working Class Hero. It's not a track to demo your surround system, but in the DTS 5.1 John's voice is clear and focussed in the centre. I can't say the same about the DD. The voice is spread across speakers (especially the front ones). I don't personally like that effect.

Bless you. I think this is one that sounds better in the DD 5.1. No matter how much you raise the rear channels of the DTS 5.1, you'll never get the same effect. Some percussions and piano are clearly heard in the rear channels in the DD, I can't say the same in the DTS. It's mostly in front, with some piano and percussions floating a little bit. There's a moment at the 2:30 min mark, with a trumpet on the FR that is then panned RR/RL on the DTS 5.1. In the DD 5.1, the trumpet is on the RR from the beginning. The more I compare the more I'm confident that there are differences between the two mixes that go beyond simple volume imbalances between front and rear channels.

 

[jimfisheye]

MakeMKV rips the Atmos stream but it hasn’t been updated to show the Atmos/TrueHD stream as that codec. If you check the MakeMKV MKV file with the latest (updated) MediaInfo app it shows it as Atmos (16 channel etc). Ffmpeg converts the core TrueHD 7.1 mix as it can’t decode Atmos.

I looked at it with MediaInfo and I see the same thing. (Forgot I had that app!)

Do you think the 7.1 file is derived and created by MakeMKV? A few other people are suggesting that. Not directly suggesting in so many words, but implying.

The tech I've read states that a 7.1 core comes as delivered. It's the height and object channels that scale to fewer channels for anyone without the full height and object array. The Atmos codec reads the available output channels and scales accordingly. For the example of a 7.1 system with no height or object channels, the media player is to fold the height and objects into the available 7.1 array as well as possible. Not actually create and write a new 7.1 file!

Actually deriving and writing a unique file by a ripping app is really a stretch I think. Nothing else works this way and none of the documentation agrees. (And how would hardware players do such a thing, right?)

I think the 7.1 core as available to any of us (Atmos codec having or not) is as delivered. The fact that the "mastering" matches the other "mastered" streams in sonic character and channel level profile can only mean it's intentional and as delivered. The premise that the 7.1 file is derived and created on the fly, and this will happen incorrectly when MakeMKV doesn't see a media player with the Atmos codec in the system, and that result could match the sonic and level character of the other "mastered" streams exactly has to be fully impossible.

I'm beating a dead horse I suppose. But I don't want to dismiss anyone's premise outright without explanation. So, there it is. If the interest is in actually hearing the mix as intended and not just settling for sounds coming from multiple speakers loudly... Like I said, I was trying not to assume that or just be dismissive.

Is my premise about the 7.1 core of the Atmos mix incorrect?
I'm going to suggest that even if the 7.1 is derived on the fly, then it followed "mastered" program and used that data to create the file. Again, there's more alteration than just levels or peak limiting and the sonic character of the "mastering" is in the 7.1 Atmos core file.


Now I have to wonder if the customer (Yoko?) requested this though! After reading all the reviewers that seem to like the spanked version. Maybe the client did as well and it was requested. We might very well see a corrected reissue with the dd stream getting the "mastered" mix instead of the other way around! That feels like a stretch to me but obviously others listening to this have different opinions. And it seems reasonable to blame Yoko I suppose.

No longer any response from the horse...

 

[himey]

I looked at it with MediaInfo and I see the same thing. (Forgot I had that app!)

Do you think the 7.1 file is derived and created by MakeMKV? A few other people are suggesting that. Not directly suggesting in so many words, but implying.

The tech I've read states that a 7.1 core comes as delivered. It's the height and object channels that scale to fewer channels for anyone without the full height and object array. The Atmos codec reads the available output channels and scales accordingly. For the example of a 7.1 system with no height or object channels, the media player is to fold the height and objects into the available 7.1 array as well as possible. Not actually create and write a new 7.1 file!

Actually deriving and writing a unique file by a ripping app is really a stretch I think. Nothing else works this way and none of the documentation agrees. (And how would hardware players do such a thing, right?)

I think the 7.1 core as available to any of us (Atmos codec having or not) is as delivered. The fact that the "mastering" matches the other "mastered" streams in sonic character and channel level profile can only mean it's intentional and as delivered. The premise that the 7.1 file is derived and created on the fly, and this will happen incorrectly when MakeMKV doesn't see a media player with the Atmos codec in the system, and that result could match the sonic and level character of the other "mastered" streams exactly has to be fully impossible.

I'm beating a dead horse I suppose. But I don't want to dismiss anyone's premise outright without explanation. So, there it is. If the interest is in actually hearing the mix as intended and not just settling for sounds coming from multiple speakers loudly... Like I said, I was trying not to assume that or just be dismissive.

Is my premise about the 7.1 core of the Atmos mix incorrect?
I'm going to suggest that even if the 7.1 is derived on the fly, then it followed "mastered" program and used that data to create the file. Again, there's more alteration than just levels or peak limiting and the sonic character of the "mastering" is in the 7.1 Atmos core file.


Now I have to wonder if the customer (Yoko?) requested this though! After reading all the reviewers that seem to like the spanked version. Maybe the client did as well and it was requested. We might very well see a corrected reissue with the dd stream getting the "mastered" mix instead of the other way around! That feels like a stretch to me but obviously others listening to this have different opinions. And it seems reasonable to blame Yoko I suppose.

No longer any response from the horse...

The bed, or core as you put it, 7.1 remains static on any non-Atmos device, the same as a 5.1 TrueHD track would be. It is only when the metadata is read by an Atmos processor that any "folding" or "derivering" is done.

 

[tezzalavell]

well just a quick review. We do not need to talk about the Music ! I have read all the Dolby , Atmos , DTS reviews and I concur the DTS MA rears were low. So Low I ripped it ! . What did I find , fronts and centres Hard limited . I cannot understand why an audiophile disc has to be hard limited . If you have dynamic range and a volume knob your sorted. So after ripping I Lowered the fronts and centre put them through Audition and gave them pseudo DR by phase shifting and upped the rears. Yes a lot of the early stuff is basically double stereo with ambience but at least now I have immersive ambience and immersive active rears on the other tracks . Surround in my opinion means equally balanced volume . I do not want to be craning my neck to hear subtleties. To finish The Beatles Datum is still the LOVE surround album which is clean, dynamic , active , immersive . Brilliant !
I gave lennon 8 cause of the Music .

 

[davidjpoole]

First listen to Gimme Some Truth in Atmos 7.1.4, compared to the DTS 5.1, and I have the Imagine and Lennon Legend DVD (may compare later, also the original UK vinyl stereo originals).

Seven tracks in, and I'm enjoying it. The music is so timely today, and really jumps out of the hifi. Mostly stereo with ambience, though I hear the 3D quality switching between Atmos and DTS.

After hearing Abbey Road this is a let down. Abbey Road was a revelation that reminded me why I invested in an Atmos set-up. I preview GST on Tidal, and thought maybe somehow the Blu-Ray would have an edge. It doesn't. This is mostly me being a completist and just wanting to hear the Lennon hits in a new mix. Not ready to score it. Love the music, mix is perhaps my new reference, but not by a huge lead.

 

[califcab]

I am very happy with this one and gave it a 10. The emphasis on keeping it an analogue sound seemed to work, and make it different than the sound on the recent Imagine box set. Better than the Imagine box set sound (except for the extraordinary raw mix sound - it is worth buying the box set just to get that disk). The surround sound is stronger on the later recordings, but that is to be expected.

 

[Marcsten]

I recently got this package. I have heard all of the blu ray. I have not played the two CDs. The surround mixes, as others have observed, vary from really good to relatively mild. This may be partly based on how the masters are mixed, meaning that there isn't a lot of separation possible. But whatever the reason, they get better and better as you go through the two hour set. I enjoy the surround on most songs quite a bit. The best thing, though, is that the engineering is cleaned up. I have most of this material on vintage vinyl and the engineering consistently has really terrible bass. The bass is thumpy yet muffled on the albums. I don't think this is a function of being on vinyl. I think its how it was mixed back in the 1970s. Think about the bass on the Late for the Sky CD-4, and you get the idea. This is vastly improved in this set, making it far more enjoyable to listen to. Overall, I give it an 8. Would be higher but for the cost, which I have whined about elsewhere.

 

[ar surround]

It would be interesting to know how the 5.1 mixes compare to Lennon Legend and Imagine. Specifically, are they more adventurous, the same, etc. Also, how does the fidelity compare to the Lennon Legend DTS? A number of the early tracks on that disc have a rather "dirty" sound to them. Thanks.

To answer my own question: I listened to most of this set today. I used the Atmos layer played back in 5.1 via the Oppo 205. It exceeds Lennon Legend with regards to the fidelity. And the six Imagine tracks that are on Gimme Some Truth have a more convincing MC mix than what we got on the Imagine 5.1 disc. I'm glad I got this one and give it a 10.

(As reported by others, the DTS 5.1 is unimpressive, so I won't be listening to that layer.)

 

[Marcsten]

To answer my own question: I listened to most of this set today. I used the Atmos layer played back in 5.1 via the Oppo 205. It exceeds Lennon Legend with regards to the fidelity. And the six Imagine tracks that are on Gimme Some Truth have a more convincing MC mix than what we got on the Imagine 5.1 disc. I'm glad I got this one and give it a 10.

(As reported by others, the DTS 5.1 is unimpressive, so I won't be listening to that layer.)

This is how I play it as well. As I said before the mixes get better and better as you work your way through the set.

 

[wrat]

rated 6
content is good but its just another greatest hits comp
listened in atmos and while it sounds very good the "surround" content is kinda weak

 

[markshan]

I gave a 9 for content and a 7 for fidelity, so an 8 overall. I still find the early stuff somewhat veiled though it is an improvement on other versions.

 

[JNL]

I voted 9. Several truly beautiful songs, some I like less. The Atmos mix, while not spectacular, brings out John's voice beautifully. As if he's in the room so to say.

 

[edisonbaggins]

Went with "8". Nicely immersive and discrete by the end, but starts off too conservative.
Details:

 

[Elad]

I was hesitant about getting this. I like John Lennon much better when he was with the Beatles. His solo material in my estimation was hit or miss and not mixed well. So when my buddy Mike ( Eddisonbaggins) received his copy he told me that the 5.1 was not very discrete but sounded good and The Atmos of the second part of the Lennon CD was excellent. I decided to take the plunge.

I kept my expectations in check and was absolutely amazed how good it sounded. I could actually hear John voice. I agree this is not a very discrete recording and I cannot believe I am going to say this but I am fine with that. This is a warm sounding CD with a good front sound stage and not sure we will ever hear Lennon so clearly.

Where this really shines is in the Atmos delivery especially the second half. This has to be one of the better atmos recordings I heard I do not even bother listening to the 5.1 because the Atmos delivers amazing sound definitely on the latter material.
Atmos in music is hit or miss more misses on what I have listened to so far, I felt it was better suited for movies. The Lennon CD in Atmos gives me hope when done right it can be a great way to listen to music that engages you.

 

[Elad]

Went with "8". Nicely immersive and discrete by the end, but starts off too conservative.
Details:

?
my brotha THANK YOU!!!!! You continually cost me money...lots of money lol .This was worth every cent.

 

[JonUrban]

Today I was playing tunes off my USB in the car in 'Song' mode, which puts every song on the drive, regardless of artist or album, in alphabetic order. I somehow was in the 'W's, and "Watching the Wheels' came on. I listened to it, and it was the ''Gimme Some Truth' version. I noticed that the piano was down in the mix, the vocals in the center channel. It sounded OK, but it was not that impressed and I felt the levels were not right. Then, when it ended, the next song was again "Watching the Wheels", only this was the "Lennon Legend" 5.1 mix. While John's vocals were everywhere, the audio was more powerful and the overall listening experience was better.

Not sure if it's the car, my ears, or the mix, but for this tune, I preferred the "Legend" over the "Truth"

 

[Nyad]

Today I was playing tunes off my USB in the car in 'Song' mode, which puts every song on the drive, regardless of artist or album, in alphabetic order. I somehow was in the 'W's, and "Watching the Wheels' came on. I listened to it, and it was the ''Gimme Some Truth' version. I noticed that the piano was down in the mix, the vocals in the center channel. It sounded OK, but it was not that impressed and I felt the levels were not right. Then, when it ended, the next song was again "Watching the Wheels", only this was the "Lennon Legend" 5.1 mix. While John's vocals were everywhere, the audio was more powerful and the overall listening experience was better.

Not sure if it's the car, my ears, or the mix, but for this tune, I preferred the "Legend" over the "Truth"

Just played the whole BD in Atmos yesterday myself, and just re-watched Edisonbaggins' review again, (his friend Dale seemed to think GST was an improvement on the Lennon Legend overall on 5.1 but I don't have the latter), as sort of a placebo for not getting the George Harrison ATMP.

 

[Larry Geller]

Today I was playing tunes off my USB in the car in 'Song' mode, which puts every song on the drive, regardless of artist or album, in alphabetic order. I somehow was in the 'W's, and "Watching the Wheels' came on. I listened to it, and it was the ''Gimme Some Truth' version. I noticed that the piano was down in the mix, the vocals in the center channel. It sounded OK, but it was not that impressed and I felt the levels were not right. Then, when it ended, the next song was again "Watching the Wheels", only this was the "Lennon Legend" 5.1 mix. While John's vocals were everywhere, the audio was more powerful and the overall listening experience was better.

Not sure if it's the car, my ears, or the mix, but for this tune, I preferred the "Legend" over the "Truth"

I don't know. Jeff Beck's Truth is a much better album than Poco's Legend.

 

[fizzywiggs41]

Gave it an 8.

Mainly because I'm a Lennon fan (Lenin 2) . I don't have Atmos even though I had the chance to buy an upgrade Yamaha Receiver , bugger all those xtra speakers ! Imho. So I spent my $ and Bought another Yamy 5.1 , so there !!
5 channel will do for my hearing tastes.

So I've listened to these songs in both DTS and Dolby Digital . It's too bad they screwed up the DTS , probably a deliberate act in order to promote Dolby .
But you certainly get your money's worth with all these Lennon tunes in 5.1 (or Atmos for those who care).

In Dolby Digital I play it almost regularly , occasionally I'll swith to DTS though. The early Lennon songs are worthwhile listening to in surround.
And one of my favourite tunes is one of his later ones "Nobody Told Me" and so is "Just Like Starting Over".