List your subwoofer and its limitations /strengths

[bluelightning]

Recently the Peerless Tymphany driver that is used in the SVS Ultra was sent to Klippel(the most accurate driver testing method currently available ) to be tested. SVS states that it has 78 mm peak to peak xmax, but Klippel found out it only had 12 mm of travel, nothing like deception in marketing, anything to sell more products and increase profits, and the Sheeple always trust the manufacturers specs.

Somehow (actually let's take Somehow out) I don't believe it. While I am not familiar with the driver Klippel tested and whether it is even used in SVS subs, their subs fair very well in tests and enthusiasts shootouts. There is no way in hell they would be able to produce the kind of output that is routinely measured from them at 20 & 16 Hz ( 113.8 dB at 20 Hz at 2 meters on ground plane) with only 12 mm of peak to peak excursion. This is what audioholics measured and similar measurements are backed by many enthusiasts. Their subs universally equal or beat specs. If SVS can achieve this with 12 mm of Xmax they deserve the Nobel prize.

I assume this is the subwoofer you and driver you are talking about. You will be hard pressed to find many subs that produce 113.8 dB at 20 Hz, 2m ground plane measurement in an open field. Mind you, I am not talking about DIY subs in monstrous configurations.

https://www.audioholics.com/subwoofer-reviews/svs-pb16-ultra-subwoofer
Unless you have measurements to the contrary on the specific driver or subwoofer to back it up, it doesn't hold any water. They are clearly testing a different driver, not the one SVS subs.

 

[hobie1dog]

Somehow (actually let's take Somehow out) I don't believe it. While I am not familiar with the driver Klippel tested and whether it is even used in SVS subs, their subs fair very well in tests and enthusiasts shootouts. There is no way in hell they would be able to produce the kind of output that is routinely measured from them at 20 & 16 Hz ( 113.8 dB at 20 Hz at 2 meters on ground plane) with only 12 mm of peak to peak excursion. This is what audioholics measured and similar measurements are backed by many enthusiasts. Their subs universally equal or beat specs. If SVS can achieve this with 12 mm of Xmax they deserve the Nobel prize.

I assume this is the subwoofer you and driver you are talking about. You will be hard pressed to find many subs that produce 113.8 dB at 20 Hz, 2m ground plane measurement in an open field. Mind you, I am not talking about DIY subs in monstrous configurations.

https://www.audioholics.com/subwoofer-reviews/svs-pb16-ultra-subwoofer
Unless you have measurements to the contrary on the specific driver or subwoofer to back it up, it doesn't hold any water. They are clearly testing a different driver, not the one SVS subs.

Well, Klippel data is scientific data, period.
Start reading here on page 15 of the thread on AVS forum. The data from the Klippel testing is posted there.
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-...15-stw-350f-90mm-mechanical-excursion-15.html
The full report with all the graphs is here:
https://stereointegrity.com/wp-cont...W-350F-188PR01-04-large-signal-parameters.pdf

 

[roundhousequad]

Ten AR-LST's...NEAT!!! Would love to hear your rig, but we're on opposite coasts. I'm using AR9's for the fronts, AR90's for the surrounds, AR915 for the the center plus Boston A70's along for the ride as the rears. So that's a total of five 12" woofers, four 10" woofers and two 8" woofers. No need for subs as the LFE is also routed to the 9 largest woofers. RoundhouseQuad, have you ever sent a pic of your five pairs of stacked LST's to Marsi? That would get his blood boiling!

No not yet trying to finally give him the answer to my ? how do you listen to THE WALL 10 LST on the bottom row the 5 LST II's then 5 MST's on the top row just have never put the wall together Frank is fun. also have a set up with 4 AR9's and another with 4 AR 90's and using a AR 58 for the center channel driven with the FAPT + and the five channel 200 watt Fosgate amp. don't really like posting pics of my house on the net. just keep up with replacing your caps The 9 and 90's tweeters are getting hard to find.

 

[bluelightning]

Well, Klippel data is scientific data, period.
Start reading here on page 15 of the thread on AVS forum. The data from the Klippel testing is posted there.
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-...15-stw-350f-90mm-mechanical-excursion-15.html
The full report with all the graphs is here:
https://stereointegrity.com/wp-cont...W-350F-188PR01-04-large-signal-parameters.pdf

This is simply not the driver used in the PB-16, either that or their Xmax calculation is incorrect or the driver tested was faulty. The measurement results for the PB-16 subwoofer in the link I posted earlier are simply unquestionable. 113.8 dB at 20 Hz ! It is physically impossible to achieve this with a single driver in a configuration similar to theirs with only 12 mm of travel. Simply cannot push enough air.

In any case, even if it were a Xmax of 12 mm, just for the sake of argument, it is quite irrelevant. To the end customer what matters is the performance of this subwoofer, which is undeniable. In fact, I challenge you to find me something that does better in a similar size/price. The end customer could give a rat's ass whether it was 0.02 mm or 200 mm.

Please show me where on their web page for this SW do they even mention Xmax. I certainly couldn't find any mention of travel or excursion. Please show me where SVS states 78 mm travel anywhere on their site for that matter. Without that I cannot see how it would be considered false advertising.

https://www.svsound.com/pages/16-ultra-series

I haven't read the whole thread and am not really interested in following it through, but from the snippets I see, it appears to me this person at stereo integrity might have his own agenda. Reading the first page shows they are discussing this driver:
New Peerless 15" STW-350F with 90mm mechanical excursion
Peerless by Tymphany STW-350F-188PR01-04 15" High Power Subwoofer

Product page:
https://www.parts-express.com/peerle...ofer--264-1652

which is clearly NOT what SVS uses. They do not use a 15" driver for one thing. This makes the whole discussion moot.

Again, I have no vested interest in SVS either way, just a casual observer with an interest in the truth. To make the claim that SVS is falsely marketing stuff seems to me is simply incorrect.

 

[Mcallister]

As mentioned earlier in this thread. Use data-bass if you’re looking for no bullshit testing and best bang for your buck DIY subs builds. If you can’t DIY you would be hard pressed to beat JTR in output, sound quality and extension.

 

[bluelightning]

As mentioned earlier in this thread. Use data-bass if you’re looking for no bullshit testing and best bang for your buck DIY subs builds. If you can’t DIY you would be hard pressed to beat JTR in output, sound quality and extension.

While JTR subs provide phenomenal output and I admire them, not everybody wants a big black box. The SVS PB 16 that I linked above is a close match in performance to the JTR at the equivalent price point. I personally think SVS, Hsu, Seaton Rythmik are all very high value choices at their price point/form/fit/finish etc.

 

[Perp]

I was able to get my Sunfire sub out of storage and was up until 2:00 in the morning on Thursday night / Friday morning working with Audyssey. Because the size of my space, I only have one area that gets both of my subs out-of-the-way, and that’s in the front corners. I had to end up moving (rotating) the Sunfire sub a bit to fix this a huge null between 35-45 Hz. It’s better but not perfect. While moving these two subs in place, I couldn’t help but notice the big difference in their weight versus size. The Sunfire sub uses an active plus passive driver in a push-pull configuration and the 10” drivers weigh a ton. On the other hand, the Goldenear sub use two dual-opposed active and two dual-opposed passive radiators that cancel out vibration. But, even though it is bigger, the Goldenear seems like a toy in weight comparison to the Sunfire. Of course, I like them both for different reasons.

 

[Mcallister]

While JTR subs provide phenomenal output and I admire them, not everybody wants a big black box. The SVS PB 16 that I linked above is a close match in performance to the JTR at the equivalent price point. I personally think SVS, Hsu, Seaton Rythmik are all very high value choices at their price point/form/fit/finish etc.

No doubt all of those are great subs, drinking and mentioning only JTR was my bad

Also I own no JTR products,

 

[bluelightning]

No doubt all of those are great subs, drinking and mentioning only JTR was my bad

Also I own no JTR products,

 

[LuvMyQuad]

I was able to get my Sunfire sub out of storage and was up until 2:00 in the morning on Thursday night / Friday morning working with Audyssey. Because the size of my space, I only have one area that gets both of my subs out-of-the-way, and that’s in the front corners. I had to end up moving (rotating) the Sunfire sub a bit to fix this a huge null between 35-45 Hz. It’s better but not perfect. While moving these two subs in place, I couldn’t help but notice the big difference in their weight versus size. The Sunfire sub uses an active plus passive driver in a push-pull configuration and the 10” drivers weigh a ton. On the other hand, the Goldenear sub use two dual-opposed active and two dual-opposed passive radiators that cancel out vibration. But, even though it is bigger, the Goldenear seems like a toy in weight comparison to the Sunfire. Of course, I like them both for different reasons.

Yes, those Sunfire subs weigh a ton and are very deceptive based on their size. And its definitely the active driver that accounts for the majority of the weight. The active driver has a amazingly huge magnet assembly. It is a really creative solution Bob Carver put together with that sub. The actual surface area of the driver is barely 8", but it can move more air than several 15" cones. Its because the woofer has a max displacement of 2.5", which is way more than a normal driver. And to make it work, its paired with a 2700 watt amplifier (4 ohm load). Ironically, the amp itself is very light weight and only about the size of a Hershey bar. Its one of his downtracking designs and doesn't use a transformer of any kind in its power supply. If it did use a transformer, there is no way the box would be that small and it would probably weigh 3 times what it does. A brilliant design IMHO.

 

[Perp]

Yes, those Sunfire subs weigh a ton and are very deceptive based on their size. And its definitely the active driver that accounts for the majority of the weight. The active driver has a amazingly huge magnet assembly. It is a really creative solution Bob Carver put together with that sub. The actual surface area of the driver is barely 8", but it can move more air than several 15" cones. Its because the woofer has a max displacement of 2.5", which is way more than a normal driver. And to make it work, its paired with a 2700 watt amplifier (4 ohm load). Ironically, the amp itself is very light weight and only about the size of a Hershey bar. Its one of his downtracking designs and doesn't use a transformer of any kind in its power supply. If it did use a transformer, there is no way the box would be that small and it would probably weigh 3 times what it does. A brilliant design IMHO.

I purchased my Sunfire sub in 1996. It is the first generation. Not the MKll (MK 2). When I pulled my sub out of its (original) double box, I found the repair sheet when they replaced the cabinet. It was in 2000. The service tech replaced several parts and told me he had updated it to an MKll.

Now (a few years ago) that I replaced several capacitors that seem to go bad after a while, it’s working again. Except, since I’ve had it set up again, it wants to turn off in less that 3 minutes or less with no signal. The other thing I find when compared to my other sub, it doesn’t sense a signal and turn on, unless I have the volume turned up to a specific point. My Goldenear sub is really sensitive to a signal and turns on right away. Plus, it takes 15 minutes before it shuts down.

Personally, I have a love/hate relationship with subwoofers in general. They’re hard to integrate but after you get one (or more) properly set up, the depth it can add to music is amazing. The other thing I dislike about subs in a small to medium size room is that they can be too big. That’s why I’ve always favored smaller subs, and my Sunfire True Subwoofer is the perfect size. The Goldenear isn’t bad but the Sunfire beats it at playing lower.

A couple of years ago, before I found the Goldenear sub, I was thinking about purchasing another Sunfire sub off eBay, even if it needed repair. In hindsight, I should have went that way instead.

 

[LuvMyQuad]

I purchased my Sunfire sub in 1996. It is the first generation. Not the MKll (MK 2). When I pulled my sub out of its (original) double box, I found the repair sheet when they replaced the cabinet. It was in 2000. The service tech replaced several parts and told me he had updated it to an MKll.

Now (a few years ago) that I replaced several capacitors that seem to go bad after a while, it’s working again. Except, since I’ve had it set up again, it wants to turn off in less that 3 minutes or less with no signal. The other thing I find when compared to my other sub, it doesn’t sense a signal and turn on, unless I have the volume turned up to a specific point. My Goldenear sub is really sensitive to a signal and turns on right away. Plus, it takes 15 minutes before it shuts down.

Personally, I have a love/hate relationship with subwoofers in general. They’re hard to integrate but after you get one (or more) properly set up, the depth it can add to music is amazing. The other thing I dislike about subs in a small to medium size room is that they can be too big. That’s why I’ve always favored smaller subs, and my Sunfire True Subwoofer is the perfect size. The Goldenear isn’t bad but the Sunfire beats it at playing lower.

A couple of years ago, before I found the Goldenear sub, I was thinking about purchasing another Sunfire sub off eBay, even if it needed repair. In hindsight, I should have went that way instead.

The biggest drawback for me with the Sunfire is its hard for me to place. Supposedly, it is best to place it in a corner. But I don't have a corner available for it. So I place it to the right front in a diagonal fashion. It works well that way, but the problem with putting it on the right is that when set with the amp plate facing the equipment rack, the active driver faces the wall. The active driver produces the bulk of the sound above 30 hz or so, and there isn't much usable sound in most music below that frequency anyway. And though the manual says it doesn't matter which driver faces which direction... it does. With the active driver facing the wall, instead of putting that energy straight into the room, it partially bounces off the rear wall causing a boom type of effect, not to mention exciting the walls considerably.

There are three solutions. You can place the sub with the plate amp away from the rack, or swap the drivers out side for side, or face the active driver forward with the entire sub upside down. Up to now, Ive done the last option. With the amp now across the country for the next few weeks Im thinking about having the enclosure re-finished in piano black and swapping out the two drivers.

I guess this is a long way of saying, when setting up, be sure to try placing it so the active driver fires into the room, or to the other side of the corner.

I read the turn on sensitivity thing was an issue on the mk1 version that was supposedly fixed on the mk2. But to be honest I've never really used that feature. The sub goes on and off like a switched power amp in my system using a signal from the pre pro to the AC power conditioner unit where its plugged into a switched power amp outlet.

 

[ssully]

Years back I built a DIY kit (Dayton 15") and that served in the corner for a long time (btw, you can't buy those kits anymore, at least not from Parts Express, wonder why?). But the arguments for >1 sub are too compelling, so a few weeks back I bought two of these and moved the Dayton to the spare system.

https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=9723

Reviewed (subjectively, though blind) here.

Since I can put subs wherever I want, two subs + Denon AVR w/Audyssey (which do 'room EQ' with two subs) give me vast flexibility for experimenting with room mode amelioration. System is bass managed and crossed over at 80Hz (my speakers have a -3dB point at ~70 Hz).

Initial sub placement is at the 1/3 room length and width position, left and right, which deals with a few major modes. Having taken the measure of that, am going to try front corner placement ( L + R) next and compare.

I don't believe in audiophile fluffery like 'musicality' and 'speed' for a subwoofer. It needs to pump out enough inaudibly distorted low bass to fit the music, period. In most cases (other than silly 'Home theater in a box' pseudo-subs) real subwoofers do that, and problems you're likely to hear are due to poor integration with the mains, and room/placement issues.

re: integration, it always bugged me (with good technical reason) that I was using a 15" woofer with 2 way monitors whose woofers are 6". That's a big bass valley to span, and it's the argument JBL etc use for having three-way mains. I suspect 12" subs are a better match for my system. Measurements (eventually) will tell me how true that is.

 

[LuvMyQuad]

Years back I built a DIY kit (Dayton 15") and that served in the corner for a long time (btw, you can't buy those kits anymore, at least not from Parts Express, wonder why?). But the arguments for >1 sub are too compelling, so a few weeks back I bought two of these and moved the Dayton to the spare system.

https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=9723

Reviewed (subjectively, though blind) here.

Since I can put subs wherever I want, two subs + Denon AVR w/Audyssey (which do 'room EQ' with two subs) give me vast flexibility for experimenting with room mode amelioration. System is bass managed and crossed over at 80Hz (my speakers have a -3dB point at ~70 Hz).

Initial sub placement is at the 1/3 room length and width position, left and right, which deals with a few major modes. Having taken the measure of that, am going to try front corner placement ( L + R) next and compare.

I don't believe in audiophile fluffery like 'musicality' and 'speed' for a subwoofer. It needs to pump out enough inaudibly distorted low bass to fit the music, period. In most cases (other than silly 'Home theater in a box' pseudo-subs) real subwoofers do that, and problems you're likely to hear are due to poor integration with the mains, and room/placement issues.

re: integration, it always bugged me (with good technical reason) that I was using a 15" woofer with 2 way monitors whose woofers are 6". That's a big bass valley to span, and it's the argument JBL etc use for having three-way mains. I suspect 12" subs are a better match for my system. Measurements (eventually) will tell me how true that is.

When I get a chance, im gonna take a closer look at that monoprice sub. I would be buying it as a gift for someone. Looks like a great deal. Do you have a personal recommendation yet?

 

[markshan]

I don't believe in audiophile fluffery like 'musicality'

How can you not believe in musicality for something that is playing music? Seems pretty basic to me.

 

[huggies66]

HSU VTF-15H MK2. Sits in a pretty large open living area. Could probably use a 2nd if I could find a place to put it. Biggest con, it's effing huge.

 

[bluelightning]

How can you not believe in musicality for something that is playing music? Seems pretty basic to me.

Because most often "musicality, airiness, analog, etc" are just audiophile fluffery with no real scientific basis. If a subwoofer has the capability of providing enough output at a particular frequency with a low enough distortion as measured by well calibrated equipment, it is automatically performing as it should.

 

[bluelightning]

When I get a chance, im gonna take a closer look at that monoprice sub. I would be buying it as a gift for someone. Looks like a great deal. Do you have a personal recommendation yet?

I am curious as well,although for a hundred bucks seems like it is almost a giveaway.

 

[LuvMyQuad]

I am curious as well,although for a hundred bucks seems like it is almost a giveaway.

For sure. For a 12" driver driven by a 100watt RMS amp its a steal. And the price just dropped another $5

 

[markshan]

Because most often "musicality, airiness, analog, etc" are just audiophile fluffery with no real scientific basis. If a subwoofer has the capability of providing enough output at a particular frequency with a low enough distortion as measured by well calibrated equipment, it is automatically performing as it should.

"Analog" is certainly used that way, but is a real word with a real definition. Musicality is certainly more open to interpretation, but that is the rub in all of this, isn't it? How do you talk about sound? I'd rather talk about how something moves me than look at graphs and measurements (which, BTW, don't tell the whole story either as much as you would like to think they do), but to each their own I suppose.