List your subwoofer and its limitations /strengths

[Mcallister]

i didn’t mean to come off as trying to dispute you. I will however dispute achieving flat frequency with the use of multiple subs, especially if calibrating for a single seating position, and you can get very close with a single row. Trying to achieve flat over 2 rows is much more difficult.

I like to be able to manipulate multiple house curves dependent upon source, this is where headroom really comes into play. the ability to run subs 20db hot and still have no distortion isn’t easy to accomplish.

 

[Sal1950]

I have to agree with those that have said 3 subs appear to be overkill for your room. I'm completely happy with my 2 Hsu in a listening space much the same as yours, 12x20' but it's open floor plan is wide open to another area comprising to at least 2x the square footage. Also remember that Audyssey will only correct for timing and FR on 2 subs individually. I'm not sure of the capabilities of Dirac 2 but Dirac 1 could only correct for one sub.
As you go up the chain in the better room correction systems the setup becomes increasing difficult and time consuming. MHO is that Audyssey when combined with the new Editor app will do a job that most users will deem "good enough". The next step is to get a UMIK2 mic and install REW to your computer and then do actual measurements of what your run of Audyssey produced. Then you can go back in using Editor and tweak the final results to your taste.
DRC is a large field of available systems but in most cases the quality of the result will depend on the amount of time the owner is willing to put into learning and tweaking his available systems program.

Here's another option, a friend and luminary in the audio field Mitch Barnett, who has also written books on the subject,
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01FURPS40Has started a paid service where he'll walk you through doing a full professional job of room correction using a variety of software.
Here's a link to his website,
https://accuratesound.ca/If you really serious on getting the very best results possible, he's the man to talk to.
More info on Mitch and his service here,
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...mitch-barnetts-new-calibration-service.10212/

 

[timothyemerson]

It is well known that Audyssey usually leaves you with a weak bottom end. Complaints are all over the web forums. Every time we used it setting up home theaters we installed, we would have to go in and bring the bass level up. The guy I sold my 8ft. long subwoofer with the (4) 18" drivers in Ito, called me when he got it installed in his house and was wondering why it didn't have near the output it did at my house. I said" I guess you used Audyssey, right?"

Interesting! I've experienced the opposite. Huge tight bass (gotta crank the sub way down) but a rolled off high end. So far for me, I'm liking Audyssey for 5.1 listening but not for stereo. I watched a movie last night but inadvertently bypassed Audyssey when I hit Pure Direct. Duh. Will try and get it right tonight.

 

[marpow]

I have to agree with those that have said 3 subs appear to be overkill for your room. I'm completely happy with my 2 Hsu in a listening space much the same as yours, 12x20' but it's open floor plan is wide open to another area comprising to at least 2x the square footage. Also remember that Audyssey will only correct for timing and FR on 2 subs individually. I'm not sure of the capabilities of Dirac 2 but Dirac 1 could only correct for one sub.
As you go up the chain in the better room correction systems the setup becomes increasing difficult and time consuming. MHO is that Audyssey when combined with the new Editor app will do a job that most users will deem "good enough". The next step is to get a UMIK2 mic and install REW to your computer and then do actual measurements of what your run of Audyssey produced. Then you can go back in using Editor and tweak the final results to your taste.
DRC is a large field of available systems but in most cases the quality of the result will depend on the amount of time the owner is willing to put into learning and tweaking his available systems program.

Here's another option, a friend and luminary in the audio field Mitch Barnett, who has also written books on the subject,
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01FURPS40Has started a paid service where he'll walk you through doing a full professional job of room correction using a variety of software.
Here's a link to his website,
https://accuratesound.ca/If you really serious on getting the very best results possible, he's the man to talk to.
More info on Mitch and his service here,
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...mitch-barnetts-new-calibration-service.10212/

Great info, I have read some info before that Mitch has written as Kal R. pointed me in his direction.

 

[H.A.L.]

My two Klipsch 12 inch subs (one in left front corner, one in right) are not at all lessened by Audyssey! Having them as the sole powered speakers is the key.

In fact, I blame current hearing problems on the fact they are a bit too loud . . . but oh man, they sound great

 

[marpow]

I think I tend to agree with most here that 3 subs for 12' X 14' is too much. So I am probably going to take REL's suggestion and get the S/510 to compliment my S5.
Here is what REL last suggested to me:

The REL subs available with XLR inputs are: the No.25 and G1MkII from the Reference line, the S/812 and S/510 from the Serie S, and the HT1508 from the Seire HT.

The HT1508 does not have a high level input so it is open only to approach 1 I mentioned earlier.

The S/812 and S/510 have both high level and XLR input. The crossover in the REL is only available to the high level input channel since this is designed to see a full bandwidth input that is filtered by the REL. The XLR input has a static crossover filter out at 120Hz since it is designed to have a limited bandwidth input signal.

The Reference RELs have a similar design to the Seire S. I assume that either of these would be too large for the space we are talking about.

 

[markshan]

In fact, I blame current hearing problems on the fact they are a bit too loud . . . but oh man, they sound great

Generally high frequencies are more damaging to hearing than low ones. They damage the cochlea. Low frequencies can damage the drum, but it tales more volume for longer times.

 

[H.A.L.]

Generally high frequencies are more damaging to hearing than low ones. They damage the cochlea. Low frequencies can damage the drum, but it tales more volume for longer times.

Interesting -- should I tone down the treble then? Although I admit that's the best part .

 

[marpow]

Generally high frequencies are more damaging to hearing than low ones. They damage the cochlea. Low frequencies can damage the drum, but it tales more volume for longer times.

Agreed. I am having an MRI done on my right ear in a couple weeks to find out about the ringing in that ear. I cannot stand high pitches anymore and my average is listening level is probably around 50db compared to 70db just a few years ago.
The thought of listening to reference levels in home theater at 85db is just no way for me.

 

[marpow]

Interesting -- should I tone down the treble then? Although I admit that's the best part .

Your highs could be accurate but possibly your bass is not reaching you do to it being lost in the room the only thing your left with is treble and the volume is over compensating.
Maybe, of course I really don't know.

 

[H.A.L.]

Your highs could be accurate but possibly your bass is not reaching you do to it being lost in the room the only thing your left with is treble and the volume is over compensating.
Maybe, of course I really don't know.

Neither do I. I went out of my way to put insulation in the corners. Guess I could tone down the treble and bring up the bass to see? Not that I don't have time to do such .

 

[Beefalo]

I think I tend to agree with most here that 3 subs for 12' X 14' is too much. So I am probably going to take REL's suggestion and get the S/510 to compliment my S5.
Here is what REL last suggested to me:

The REL subs available with XLR inputs are: the No.25 and G1MkII from the Reference line, the S/812 and S/510 from the Serie S, and the HT1508 from the Seire HT.

The HT1508 does not have a high level input so it is open only to approach 1 I mentioned earlier.

The S/812 and S/510 have both high level and XLR input. The crossover in the REL is only available to the high level input channel since this is designed to see a full bandwidth input that is filtered by the REL. The XLR input has a static crossover filter out at 120Hz since it is designed to have a limited bandwidth input signal.

The Reference RELs have a similar design to the Seire S. I assume that either of these would be too large for the space we are talking about.

All of my subwoofers just use a single RCA jack LFE input.
My AVR controls all the volume, crossover, phase & EQ settings.

 

[markshan]

Interesting -- should I tone down the treble then? Although I admit that's the best part .

I can't speak to that without hearing your system. I just know as a gigging bassist in small clubs for a couple decades, it wasn't my rig that hurt my ears but rather it was the crash cymbals I was often positioned next to. I wish I had started using hearing protection much younger. It was somewhat frowned upon back then, now people are smarter.

 

[sperezmore]

Subwoofers:

Polk Audio PSW Series PSW111 Powered Subwoofer / 150-watt (300 watts peaks) 21.2 lbs

https://www.crutchfield.com/S-vtCKC...5PRdHTK9WPcVRvtfC8Kkg5ho1XoYSLUkaAk5WEALw_wcB
Velodyne Acoustics CT Series CT-100 Powered Subwoofer / 100-watt (250 watts peaks) 52.91 lbs

https://tmraudio.com/speakers/subwoofers/velodyne-ct-100-10-powered-subwoofer-black-ct100/
They work perfect for me so far.

Regards,

 

[Beefalo]

Subwoofers:

Polk Audio PSW Series PSW111 Powered Subwoofer / 150-watt (300 watts peaks) 21.2 lbs

https://www.crutchfield.com/S-vtCKC...5PRdHTK9WPcVRvtfC8Kkg5ho1XoYSLUkaAk5WEALw_wcB
Velodyne Acoustics CT Series CT-100 Powered Subwoofer / 100-watt (250 watts peaks) 52.91 lbs

https://tmraudio.com/speakers/subwoofers/velodyne-ct-100-10-powered-subwoofer-black-ct100/
They work perfect for me so far.

Regards,

I like powered subwoofers. An easy way to add power and headroom to your system.

 

[hobie1dog]

I like powered subwoofers. An easy way to add power and headroom to your system.

I wish I could find the article from years ago where they did a test to see how much power it took to eliminate clipping in a rim shot from a snare drum, (could have been Carver or when he was working at Phase Linear). Anyway they kept adding power until the clipping was eliminated, and it took 1000 watts. Bass signals require MUCH more power to drive the larger voice coils in sub drivers. Putting an oscilloscope on a sub amplifier will reveal how much larger levels of power is required for bass drum hits/explosions. I was hoping to see a trend towards using much higher powered amps (Class D or H) for subs instead of the low powered models they produce, as anything under 200 watts is going to be insufficient for clean undistorted bass. The Home Theater crowd have realized how much power is needed to drive 18" or 24" diameter drivers. They mostly always use outboard PA style amps in the 2K-5K watt range, especially the DIY crowd. But there's a big difference in a rather small 8" (normally the smallest sub driver in use) than a 18" driver. The world is flooded with subs to choose from, which is a good thing for us.

 

[hobie1dog]

The first box has been made for the Stereo Integrity woofers, and this is the prototype with an 18" woofer in it for a .707 sealed alignment. over 4" of travel, plays into the single digits with very tight, accurate audiophile bass, and it makes any JL sub sound boomy. So my son is giving me this one to use in my stereo room, which is a 13 x 14 bedroom in a condo, so I'll only use 30% of it's capability at best. You would have to hear this to understand how weak and anemic most consumer subs are in comparison.

v

basically just big enough for the woofer to fit in

magnet is powerful too for total cone control

comparison of a woofer that costs 50% more

 

[TVB]

Jbl original powered sub bass unit that came with Jbl 212 satelite system. Sound is impressive with very low "rattle the house" type bass. Sound is not boomy. Weakness of the sub bass unit is low power, but I fixed that by sending the sub out signal from my oppo to a Sony ES power amp into the sub. The Sony is bridged to mono and has a volume control. Now I can back off or add bass from any disc (perfect for augumenting the bass from PT's In Abstentia disc). I also set up a switchbox so i can send a signal from all of my other sources (from the rec out pre amp jacks) to the sony and into the sub. While this isn't a pure sub signal, the difference in bass while listening from an SQ encoded record is amazing and much better than using a traditional bass tone control in getting the low bass tones that i prefer.

 

[bluelightning]

The first box has been made for the Stereo Integrity woofers, and this is the prototype with an 18" woofer in it for a .707 sealed alignment. over 4" of travel, plays into the single digits with very tight, accurate audiophile bass, and it makes any JL sub sound boomy. So my son is giving me this one to use in my stereo room, which is a 13 x 14 bedroom in a condo, so I'll only use 30% of it's capability at best. You would have to hear this to understand how weak and anemic most consumer subs are in comparison.

v

basically just big enough for the woofer to fit in

magnet is powerful too for total cone control

comparison of a woofer that costs 50% more

Which Stereo integrity 18 woofer are you using ? It it HT18 MkII ? I have for a while wanted to build my own sub, but alas my woodworking skills are lacking. Need to find someone to help with the box. I have looked at the Mach Audio UXL 18 and some of the Dayton drivers. Any experience with these ?

 

[Sal1950]

The first box has been made for the Stereo Integrity woofers, and this is the prototype with an 18" woofer in it for a .707 sealed alignment. over 4" of travel, plays into the single digits with very tight, accurate audiophile bass, and it makes any JL sub sound boomy. So my son is giving me this one to use in my stereo room, which is a 13 x 14 bedroom in a condo, so I'll only use 30% of it's capability at best. You would have to hear this to understand how weak and anemic most consumer subs are in comparison.

v

basically just big enough for the woofer to fit in

magnet is powerful too for total cone control

comparison of a woofer that costs 50% more

What's the price tag on that driver? An incredible surround suspension on it, 4" of travel?