Lou Dorren: A new CD-4 Demodulator!!! [ARCHIVE]

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Hello Lou, it has just occurred to me the most important ask to you: I and I think also a few or any of the fans here in Germany/Europe would like also to buy the new demodulator. But will have the electric connection also (switch over to) the standard of Germany and some other european country's with 240 volt 50 Hz ?

Dietrich
 
All,
I've just stumbled across this thread, really fascinating!
Lou,
Any estimate as to the approximate cost for the decoder and ETA?
All again,
I use a custom phono preamp that sums the bass at 140Hz and below to actively cancel turntable rumble; what effect, if any, might that have on decoding CD-4/SQ/QS information? Since a lot of turntable rumble is vertical, the bass is out of phase. My circuit takes advantage of that and cancels the out of phase rumble and keeps the in phase music.
The discussion on bass directionality piqued my interest also, and the mortar example, I think has a slight flaw in it: a mortar blast has higher frequency transients that are absolutely directional. The question is, are low frequencies as directional? When the annoying boombox on wheels blasting (c)rap "music" pulls up to the same stop light, I have a hard time finding which car it is. I usually find it by visual clues instead of aural ones.
Thanks
 
Hello everybody,

Doug G. Your premise is incorrect. The cartridge frequency response, distortion, and high frequency separation are quite critical to proper CD-4 performance. Turning on the carrier indicator or seeing carrier level on the meter means only that the cartridge is good enough to pickup the 30KHz carrier but does not indicate if it is indeed getting the upper sideband.

What is the voltage at pin 24 and pin 27? What is the exact voltage at the base of transistor TR701? What kind of cartridge are you using?

Lou Dorren

Hi Lou,

First, I apologize for taking so long to answer here but I had the SH-400 buttoned up and didn't take the top off until today.

When I answered the supposition that the meter on the SH-400 was calibrated only for the supplied cartridge, I was strictly answering in terms of the carrier level and I do realize that the other factors are very important in the whole scheme of CD-4.

I do have to say here that, back when I was a young pup in the seventies, I was so thrilled by the CD-4 system, I could hardly stand it!

Anyway, the voltages on the QSI5022 are as follows in my SH-400:

Specified on schematic: Actual on my unit:

Pin 23 Left 5.7 VDC 7.01 VDC
Pin 23 Right 5.7 VDC 7.01 VDC

Pin 24 Left 5.7 VDC 4.88 VDC
Pin 24 Right 5.7 VDC 4.58 VDC

Pin 27 Left 5.7 VDC 5.69 VDC
Pin 27 Right 5.7 VDC 5.63 VDC

These voltages are specified to be the same with or without signal.

The voltages on TR701 are as follows:

Specified on schematic: Actual on my unit:

Base 14.0 VDC 13.10 VDC
Colledtor 18.5 VDC 17.62 VDC
Emitter 13.3 VDC 12.51 VDC

I am presently using a Stanton cartridge with one of their "Q" styli which seems to work pretty well.

I appreciate any information you can give and I understand if you are too busy. The unit does function but I am just curious why these voltages are off from the schematic values.

Doug
 
Hello Quad Folks,

Quadro-Action,

Dietrich, There will be 2 analog displays for carrier level, but no VU meters, Sorry. The power supply is universal for 100,105,110,115,117,120,200,205,210,220,230,240 VAC 50-60 Hz.

malcom2010, Good idea, I will try!

electrolad, OK and welcome aboard!

kfbkfb,
Kirk, I read the drivel that Skip Pizzi wrote and ground my molars during the exercise. Giving somebody a great deal of misinformation and a forum to expound such, often leads the non technical reader down the primrose path. This happens far to much in the consumer technologies. His paper was so full of technical iinaccuracies, that I was preparing a definitive answer. Then I noticed that the paper was written in January of 2005 which gave me some relief. None the less, here are some choice examples of bad information.

1. "while a difference signal (i.e., audio not common to both L and R channels) was multiplexed into the FM channel as a 38 kHz AM sub-carrier". Incorrect! The sub-carrier is a Double Sideband Suppressed Carrier Amplitude Modulation (DSBSCAM) This is not AM!

2. "Music was released in a single LP format, the so-called 45/45 stereo system, where vertical groove modulation represented the L+R sum, and lateral modulation represented the L-R stereo difference signal." Bovine fecal mater!!! 45/45 is orthogonal undulation which results in vertical groove undulation L-R (Not L+R) and lateral grove undulation L+R (not L-R).

3. "There have been numerous attempts to move FM beyond stereo in the years since, but none have been successful." Not true. My system was technically successful and was chosen as the national standard for Quadraphonic FM single station broadcasting and the standards in FCC rules 73.319, 73.322, and 73.323 cover the use of my system. It is true that Quadraphonics in general was not a commercial success.

4.Part of this is by design, with the primary purveyor of "matrixed" surround, Dolby Labs, preferring not to license its decoders to FM receivers, due to concern that poor performance under multi-path reception conditions would reflect badly on the surround format's reputation. Absolute garbage! Dolby's concern was that the "matrix" system had so much out of phase information that the mono compatibility was adversely affected. Multi-path had nothing to do with it.

5."One advantage of the matrixed surround system is its ability to reproduce relatively strong, stable and consistent surround images via four channels of audio, while only requiring two audio channels for storage or transmission (thus the "4-2-4" terminology applied to such systems). This is particularly true of matrixed surround systems that feature enhanced "steering logic" circuitry in decoders, such as Dolby Pro Logic. " Technical folly. Let me restate from post 291:

"Wait a minute, what about , Tate, Prologic etc.? Well these devices have an interesting effect. When the Information Theorem is satisfied, they can do something that appears to be correct. When the Information Theorem is not satisfied, they become quite confused. There are 2 conditions in matrix 4-2-4 where the Information theorem is satisfied. Condition number 1 is sending only 1 of the 4 channels at a time. The example is LF only with LB,RF,RB silent. In this case the Tate, Prologic,etc processors have enough information to turn the level down on LB,RF,RB and leave the level up on LF. If only one channel is sent at a time, the sound can be made to appear going around the room. Quadraphonic right? No, it is only a special effect! The minute there are more then 2 audio channels being sent, all bets are off. By the way, when all 4 channels are input on a 4-2-4 matrix system, there will be at least 1 pair of channels on the output that will have no more than 3dB of separation."

6. "Matrixed surround systems use quadrature encoding of front/rear difference information onto the stereo signal, which provides another layer of backward compatibility to audio signals, allowing a single mix to produce acceptable results in surround, stereo or mono listening - again, assuming the creative-stage mixing follows appropriate rules." Technically and empirically unrealizable! An AM carrier and it's baseband may be quadratured to provide 2 independent carriers on the same frequency, however audio frequencies can not be quadratured for independence. Again quoting from post 291:

"The information theorem is one of my favorite discussion subjects. It states that for a given number of input channels, there must be the same number of transmission channels, to reproduce to the same of output channels. This is then defined by 3 numbers. Take Discrete Quad for example. It is defined as 4-4-4, 4 input channels, 4 transmission channels, 4 output channels. It fulfills the Information Theorem perfectly. Now what about any of the matrix systems. These systems have 4 input channels, 2 transmission channels, and four output channels. They fail the Information
Theorem even with all the processors. This is because the 4-2-4 systems are all 2 channel stereo with 4 inputs and 4 speakers.

Here is an analog that should demonstrate what a matrix 4-2-4 system does. Imagine four soda glasses, each one half filled with a different soda. Glass 1 has orange soda, glass 2 has root beer, glass 3 has cherry soda and glass 4 has lemon soda. These are the 4 input channels with the color of the soda equivalent to the phase shift. Now imagine 2 empty glasses representing the 2 transmission channels. Now take input glass1 and input glass2 and empty the contents into transmission channel glass 1. Then take input glass3 and input glass4 and empty these contents into transmission channel glass 2.

Now here is the problem, having poured the orange and the root beer into the same glass, regardless of color, how do you separate them back into their original discrete soda form? The answer is you can not!! All the 4-2-4 matrix systems do is to mix (add) 2 signals on the left together and put them on the left channel and they do the same for the right channel. Phase shifting at audio frequencies serves no purpose unless you are using it as a "guitar effect"."

Lucanu, I will look into it.

jrborg, Glad to have you aboard. If you have to do that much to eliminate turntable rumble, I would look for a flaw in the turntable. Most good direct drive turntables like the Technics SL-1100 or SL1200 have almost unmeasurable rumble. As far a Bass directionality is concerned, this was proven and confirmed during the National Quadraphonic Radio Committee double blind directionality tests.

Lou Dorren
 
Lou,
I use the preamp along with a modified SL-D1 turntable (which uses many of the same parts as the SL-1200) to restore and transfer to CD records from 16 to 80rpm. Many of the older records are homemade cardboard 78s, and I often run into LPs that have not been mastered to modern standards. So the rumble I have to contend with is in the records themselves, not the turntable I use.
I'm starting to collect equipment to get into quad formats, and that's why the question about bass summing and matrix decoding, and I'm sure that as I get further into this endeavor, I'll get an earful about AC-3 and DTS, but that's a subject for another thread.
 
Hello Quad Folks,

Here is an analog that should demonstrate what a matrix 4-2-4 system does. Imagine four soda glasses, each one half filled with a different soda. Glass 1 has orange soda, glass 2 has root beer, glass 3 has cherry soda and glass 4 has lemon soda. These are the 4 input channels with the color of the soda equivalent to the phase shift. Now imagine 2 empty glasses representing the 2 transmission channels. Now take input glass1 and input glass2 and empty the contents into transmission channel glass 1. Then take input glass3 and input glass4 and empty these contents into transmission channel glass 2.

Now here is the problem, having poured the orange and the root beer into the same glass, regardless of color, how do you separate them back into their original discrete soda form? The answer is you can not!! All the 4-2-4 matrix systems do is to mix (add) 2 signals on the left together and put them on the left channel and they do the same for the right channel. Phase shifting at audio frequencies serves no purpose unless you are using it as a "guitar effect"."

Lou Dorren

Matrixing is a nicer word for mixing!

Rolv-Karsten
 
Hello Lou, you gave well answers for me with the universal power supply and the analog display. But now I will pester with a further asking: Most records for the adjustment are 45 speed singles. But by a test of some different records, each will give a little varying position for the maximum of the channel separation. I thought, an exactly test tone will results always stable results. Ask two: There are also a few records including test tones with 33 rpm speed (Harman Kardon etc.) - the same of the usual speed for CD-4 records. So I think, the measurement of the test tones by the same speed condition would be more exactly? This measurment I prefere actual.

Dietrich
 
Regarding Surround Sound and Radio:

Does Discrete Quadraphonic FM work with FM IBOC?

http://www.ibiquity.com/hd_radio/iboc_white_papers
(I couldn't find any mention of testing Quadraphonic
FM with FM IBOC)

Neural Audio calls their system a 5:2:5 Matrix
http://www.neuralsurround.com/radio
"...the only surround technology to be commercially
adopted by radio broadcasters in the United States"

What can be done to try to get Radio broadcasters
(Analog - Digital - Satellite - Terrestrial) to use
Discrete Surround Sound exclusively for Surround
Sound broadcasts (and maybe use Quad FM too)?

Kirk Bayne
 
I am also definitly interested, whether it was assembled or as a kit (haven't done a Heathkit like project for years). I envy your expertise in planning and accomplishing this project on behalf of all us quad lovers. Thanks.

Ken
 
Its not quad or not if YOU say so.

Its only quad or not if I say so.

I am the decider. :banana:

I do understand, but remember:
Calling a dog a cat doesn't make it so!

(calling two channels of information 'Quad' doesn't make it so either!)
 
I tend to agree with Mr Dorren. SQ, and QS is merely an illusion of quad. Having said that, with the proper decoders, it's a very good illusion. It provides a better sound field than stereo, and has some of the characteristics of quad. Years ago, I used to mostly listen to SQ and tapes because I couldn't get CD-4 to work properly. Once I got a CD-4 system working like it was supposed to, I was hooked. Though I occaisionally listen to SQ records, My Tate is primarily used to process stereo, when I'm not sitting down to listen. But when I do, It's either a modern digital format or it's CD-4. Still, I reiterate, our brains do it with two channels, just two ears. So, I believe it could be possible to unscramble the egg, so to speak, but it will take a genius with lots of time on his hands to figure it out how to do it. That is, if it's even possible to imitate what our brains do with electronic components. An interesting read on this subject would be the biphonic experiments that were performed in the early eighties and late seventies and printed in the 4-quad publications that came out in the early eighties. But I wouldn't know where to find this info now. But I'ts sure to be on the internet somewhere. Basically, they made a dummy head with two microphones, one in each ear, and set it up in a room with a discrete quad system. The microphones were fed to a stereo amp and then to the stereo headphones of a listener in a sonically isolated place. The result was that the listener experienced (the illusion of) quad through two channels. However, I don't recall how good, it was stated, was the illusion. I do recall that it was an interesting read.

The Quadfather
 
I love both worlds, discrete and matrix.
To me discrete is like a color TV against matrix as a B/W TV.
An example: in B/W you can't detect which color was used on dresses used by actors, but you can still enjoy the story on that movie as well as it is in color.
Both must be done properly, of course.
My 2 cents
 
Most of us prefere of course for quadraphonic records the CD-4 system. But also the SQ camp has had theire merits. Because for each SQ record was mixed a true quadraphonic 4-channel mastertape as basis. And from most SQ productions we could have the "copy" of the Q8's, which sounds too discrete. On the other hand, most tapes, Q4 and especially Q8 in a mass production will not have the real high-fidelity of the mastertape. That will have most the record - equal if stereo or the for us interesting CD-4. So it is further interesting and important, that we can get in hopeful near future a CD-4 demodulator, which can lift the CD-4 sound quality in a higher sound level.
 
Hello QQphiles,

This is a brief comment,

Interesting word, illusion, especially in the context of audio. The system is quite monumental when involved in sound illusion. The other important word is reproduction. This word defines where the illusion occurs, in the content or in the system! In the "matrix" systems, because of the information theorem, the illusion (sound field) is synthesized in the "decoder". In some instances it tries to use queues from the incoming content to generate the sound field, but this only works with 2 or less input content channels active. With full load content (all 4 channels), the sound field created is in fact a random illusion created by the decoder and not an accurate display of the input content.

With the discrete systems, the output is an accurate and faithful reproduction of the input. This means that the content can contain direct unmodified information which will be output as a faithful reproduction of the input. It is quite possible to create an illusion in the original content and have it reproduced in the discrete output. The purveyor of the content is in complete control of the final output with a discrete system, and is not with a "matrix" one, whether it is an illusion or a reproduction.

Installment V is coming and I will answer other questions next time.

Lou Dorren
 
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