Lou Dorren: A new CD-4 Demodulator!!! [ARCHIVE]

QuadraphonicQuad

Help Support QuadraphonicQuad:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
Hello Quadraphonic Quad People,

After much Deep thought and consultations with QQ executives, not to mention callmez Mark Z. and my friend and right hand man (he is actually a lefty) wa6ubw Mike F. The name of the new Demodulator will be :

Quadraphonic Quad Limited Edition Signature Series
2008 CD-4 Demodulator

Each unit will be serialized and come with a certificate of authenticity.

Enjoy,
Lou Dorren
 
(y) With a name that long though, it will HAVE to be in a 19" rack mount case to get all the lettering on it. :D

We should probably create a thread to find out exactly how many of these Lou should get parts for to build.

One thing I'd like to point out for the record and just to make it clear to everyone - while the new demodulator bears the QQ name, QQ is in no way profiting from the sale of these things - nor do I want to. I keep this place free of ads and donations and auctions and crap like that, and I don't want anyone to think that QQ is going to profit from this venture. I'm just "pleased as punch" that Lou is a member here and is going to create these amazing boxes for us.

QQ will support it with a very big effort because it's "Amazing", but I just want to make it clear to all right from the start.

Now - go forth and buy! I am. :D
 
It looks like the stylus industry has survived the demise of the turntable, and so have turntables.
this may be an off-topic reply?

Time magazine in its Jan 21 issue has an article entitled Vinyl Gets Its Groove Back which states vinyl is having a resurgence. Especially people under 30 are buying new or dusting off heirloom record changers and turntables and buying newly pressed albums. :banana: It's unfortunate that none of them will be CD-4s

Read the article if ya don't believe me! :mad:@:
 
Hello Quadraphony Aficionados,

To go along with Jon, I want you all to realize that this is not a profit making Item. The price when set, will cover the costs of a small production run of equipment. When ready, there will be a short time (1 or 2 months) for anyone who wants one to say so. When that time comes, I will post cost, specs, and terms of the pre-production prototype. At the same time I will make available a complete set of semiconductors for long term servicing. I will write a User and a Service manual to come with the unit. At this time I can tell you that there will be a very high performance Pickup Cartridge that will be great for CD-4 and stereo records and you will be able to get more than one if you wish as well as replacement styli. You will not have to modify your turntables, however, I will make available low capacity phono cable for anyone who wants it. This project is a pet of mine, stirred on by all of you great CD-4 fans and is a few months away from prototype test. I am, however, testing sub-systems for performance and any modifications needed and will keep everyone informed. I am doing this in my free time and will complete it with help of my staff as soon as possible. Meanwhile, please enjoy the installments and feel free to ask any questions on Quad, Audio, Recording, Mastering, Electronics, etc.

I will answer any outstanding questions next post.

Lou Dorren
 
I will take discrete surround recordings any way I can get 'em, but it looks like there may be problems getting DVD Audio and SACD players repaired or replaced 20 years out, And CD-4 equipment is simple and repairable, and will be for years to come. Hopefully, including Mr Dorren's. So new CD-4 recordings might just be the way to go for quad longevity. It looks like the stylus industry has survived the demise of the turntable, and so have turntables. So if there were new CD-4 recordings, I would be willing to purchase them providing they were of good quality. Apparently, getting back a production capability wouldn't be that monumental of a task to someone already in that business. And anyone still in the LP business is familiar with small scale production and wouldn't consider it a loss. I think a lot of times the major record industries don't want to do surround because they don't make tons of money on it. But someone used to making the kind of money a successful local business would make, would consider it OK. There are a lot of CD-4 records out there, and Mr Dorren might get business outside of the Quadraphonic Quad community that he didn't anticipate if word gets out. Wouldn't that be great?

The Quadfather

Yes, the surround digital disk business is a strange and uncertain thing. SACd and DVD-A are in their infancy so to speak, and already the formats are close to dying. Probably the next digital disk will be music on BluRay - with or without picture. I would hesitate jumping on that bandwagon. Because how long will this new format survive.
So I agree to some degree, DACD and DVD-Audio players might not be possible to fix or replace in 20 years time.
Fantastic LP playback equipment are of course availlable now, and most likely 20 years from now. I agree with you. Regarding new CD-4 disks I am much more unsure, but the thing about the future is that you never know.
And also, make no mistake, I appreciate very much Mr Dorren's project. I might even sign up for a demodulator myself, depending on price etc.

Best regds
 
Tks 4 the update. What an interesting project. I will delay getting my MDD4 fixed.
I was intriged to see the Neumann lathe. That was used by Sheffield lab to make their excellent stereo recordings. Ah. the memories. Thelma Huston was at the gold coast some years ago but i never got there to get her to autograph her recording with presure cooker. I'll be interested to see a circuit. I have a few transitorised power supplies that were made to power a hyperdrive hard disk in an Apple mac (12 vold dc out) so hopefully this will power that demodulator, too, Half the effort I would think.
 
At this point, I fear not being able to play my DVD Audio discs and SACDs more than not being able to play my quadradiscs. And last time I tried it, my Elton John (YBR) wouldn't play right. That was the second set I lost. Also, my Deep Purple Machine Head DTS wouildn't play right. I think my Pioneer player is going out on me, yet it plays movies just fine. Ugh!

The Quadfather
 
At this point, I fear not being able to play my DVD Audio discs and SACDs more than not being able to play my quadradiscs. And last time I tried it, my Elton John (YBR) wouldn't play right. That was the second set I lost. Also, my Deep Purple Machine Head DTS wouildn't play right. I think my Pioneer player is going out on me, yet it plays movies just fine. Ugh!

The Quadfather

I just cleaned the lens on my Yamaha and it was having trouble just starting the read on plain cd's. Now it reads them perfect and does all my dvd and dts but still a little trouble on my home made dts
 
Hello Lou, to stretch or fill in the time, bevore we can read news from you, here an idea, which I have had often for a "better" or more easy CD-4 technic from beginning. It is of course only an idea, because in reality we can work only with the existing CD-4 technic and may be some improvements - like your new CD-4 demodulator.

But I have always wondered, why a quadraphonic record must be full compatibel for stereo-listeners. I think, who buys a quadraphonic record, he will not listen those in stereo mode. If now and then, when he may have for control or joke a switch-mode by his 4-channel amplifier "4 to 2". Some strange was the situation by SQ/QS records. They was playing well on each stereophonic equipment without every idea for surround by the owner. Why additional separate stereo-records (mixdowns)? This double productions by Matrix and CD-4 records have brought many superfluous costs by the production. And too expensive was may be another reason for the failure of Quadraphony. (Here may help your coming story about the quadraphonic scene in the background.)


But back to CD-4: I think, that the CD-4 record could have only front and back informations - without the sum(or stereo compatible) listening information. Without an A/B matrix we could have than a separation front-back of around 50 dB!

I am interesting, what you mean about my theoretical ideas and have been such ideas known in the beginning of developing CD-4? Your answer may be an interesting message from you till we can read further news about the CD-4reality with your new Demodulator.

Dietrich
 
Hey Lou:
I was reading your papers on the new CD-4 demodulator and remembered what you said about filters changing the phase and amplitude of signals enough to reduce effectiveness of carrier cancellation techniques. Wouldn't this also be true for the main audio that must be mixed with the demodulated difference signal? If so, what if you applied the low pass filtering beyond the matrix instead of before? It would require two more filters, but you have already noted that you were able to get the cost of the filters down. This would allow the separation to be obtained before filtering, and without the loss of separation that the filter might cause. Would this be a good idea?

The Quadfather
 
Hello Quadaphiles,

surroundophile, The best turntable is one that mimics the original cutting lathe. This would be the linear tracking turntable. The reason is that there is no tangential tracking error as in turntables with arms. There is one caveat however. In some modern recordings there is tangential error pre-distortion used in cutting the original disk. This would create a virtual tangential error in the linear turntable. Using a high compliance phono cartridge reduces to some extent this problem in both types of turntables.

Quadzilla, Low capacitance cables are still recommended because the load impedance of typical phono pre-amplifiers is 50,000 Ohms. At this impedance, it does not take much capacitance to affect the high frequency response of the cartridge.

Rolv-Karsten, The frequency response of the CD-4 system is not as much a compromise as you may think. Modern LP records have little if any energy much above 14 to 15 KHz. The standard stereo cutting system is capable for short time of doing this, but when mastering an album of 20 to 30 minutes a side at real time, it is very easy to overheat and damage the cutting head with much energy above 15KHz. Half speed cutting can improve this with the exception that the modified playback reel to reel tape machine has much difficulty reproducing at 15KHz and above with stable amplitude and phase. During the half speed-real time cutting controversy, RCA did an energy density average of 5000 commercially available LP disks. These disks were divided into 2 groups, real time mastered and half speed mastered. The half speed group was much smaller(173 disks), while the real time was the rest (4827 disks). The result was that 98.3% of the energy density was between 25Hz and 13.5KHz, 1.6% energy density between 13.5KHz and 15KHz and .2% above 15KHz. The energy density measurement range was from 0dBm(5 cm/sec) to -45dBm over the frequency range of 20Hz to 20 KHz. A little personal history about this subject. In 1966, I was fortunate to be taught disk mastering by one of the best mastering engineers in the industry, Mel Tanner, at Coast Recorders in San Francisco California. At that time 45 RPM mono singles and stereo 33 1/3 LP records were the most requested masters and dubs. It should be noted that phono cartridges had very poor (stiff) compliance(7*10-6cm/dyne) at that time. This made it very hard for good high frequency performance much above 10 KHz. I was taught that in most real time stereo masters, to roll off frequencies above 13 KHz. This has remained pretty much a standard. This allowed very cheap low compliance cartridges to work without being thrown out of high frequency groove undulations. Variable pitch and variable depth techniques can extend this another 1.5 KHz higher. All this to say that the 15KHz high frequency response of CD-4 is about the same as standard stereo records with few exceptions that have pushed the cutting envelope. The half speed and real time CD-4 mastering systems would helium cool the cutting head to prevent over heating and head burnout.

bad robot, Power supply is built in!

justforthesounofit, The direct preamp outputs have no 15KHz lpf, the main outputs do.

Quadro-Action,

Dietrich, The answer is simple business. No record company wanted to have dual inventories. Without compatibility, there would have to be a stereo disk and a quad disk. CD-4 allows a single inventory and the stereo listener can buy the CD-4 record and still get great stereo playback.

Quadfather, The filter in the main channel really serves 3 purposes. It matches the frequency response of the sub-channel. It matches the delay of the sub-channel and it eliminates any carrier ultrasonic signals from reaching the matrix, which could create birdies(unwanted tone noise) in the outputs. Matching filter parameters is very easy these days!

That is it for this post, see you all next time,

Lou Dorren
 
Last edited:
Thank you for the detailled and very interresting answer, Mr. Dorren.
One could of course argue that CD goes to 22kHz, DVD-A and SACD to almost 48 KHz (or even almost 100kHz).
But there is still controversy I believe if one could hear ultra-sonic sound. (Per definition one cannot hear ultra-sonic sound, that's inherent in the term :) .) No need to start that discussion here!

Looking forward to your installement IV, but I guess you are busy replying to posts :)

Rolv-Karsten
 
Hello people,

Rolv-Karsten, CD's are a better medium then phonograph records as long as all the rules(information theorum, Nyquist rate,Shannon's theorem) are followed. If they are not then the medium suffers from "digititus". Full audio reproduction is considered 20 Hz to 20 KHz. I believe that if one could hear ultrasonically, one would bark!

Quadzilla, The cables you use should be quite good for CD-4. The frequency roll off with a 50,000 load starts a 222KHz which is well above CD-4 frequencies.

Lou Dorren
 
Last edited:
There is something I wondered about...when playing a CD-4 record, does the signal from the cartridge first go through a regular RIAA equalization? This never made sense to me: RIAA is already down over -20dB at 20kHz, so at 50kHz it must be down to noise levels, so how does the demodulator work with that?

Or, does the 30kHz signal first get extracted, demodulated and then RIAA applied to...both the stereo and the back channels? Just the back channels?

I will appreciate any clarification.
 
Hello TipTop,

The preamp in the CD-4 demodulator is slightly different. The sub-carrier signal is picked off before the R.I.A.A. equalizer network as you surmised. If you look at the block diagram in installment one, it shows the signal paths. R.I.A.A. is never applied to the difference channels, it is FM-PM-SSBFM that is used.

Lou Dorren
 
Meanwhile - back at the ranch - I took the opportunity to scan a 36 years old JVC technical document on CD-4. This can be downloaded 100 times over 7 days, if we are lucky, from
http://www.yousendit.com/transfer.php?action=download&ufid=E07DA86E53B4F879.
The file name is For_a_Better_Understanding_of_CD.pdf, and that is also the title of the paper - "For a Better Understanding of CD".

Rolv-Karsten :phones
 

Attachments

  • For_a_Better_Understanding_of_CD-4_front.jpg
    For_a_Better_Understanding_of_CD-4_front.jpg
    14.3 KB
Back
Top