HiRez Poll Nektar - REMEMBER THE FUTURE [Blu-Ray Audio]

[rtbluray]

Please post your thoughts and comments on this new reissue of the classic album "Remember the Future" by Nektar.
This new 50th anniversary edition contains 4 CDs and a Blu-Ray disc that includes a new 5.1 surround mix of the album alongside the original 1973 Quadraphonic mix.

 

[sieges]

Bought this LP when it first came out. Every year or so , when I remember to play it, the music never gets stale. It is a masterpiece of rock history.
So many of our Rock legends, were at their creative peaks when they were in their 20's..Could you imagine the Stones releasing Let it Bleed TODAY, or my favorite - Springsteen ....releasing Born To Run or Darkness TODAY ?? ..................aint happening.....Remember The Future.......

 

[ssully]

{copying this from the other RTF thread, which is mostly fascinating posts about about shipping and boxing]


Here's a post about actual sound of this release. (Part 1 only, haven't listened to Part 2 yet). The 2023 quad -- which actually has 6 channels, with some minimal LFE content and a silent C channel -- is definitely different from the 2004 SACD quad (which was also 6 channels, with minimal content in both C and LFE), notable almost right away starting at around 0:40, the prelude to the first verse. At that point the 2004 quad has guitars, bass , drums plus low level Hammond organ in front, the rears have only guitars, but in the 2023 quad the front has bass and drums, the rears have quite loud Hammond, with nearly all the guitars shoved into the left rear channel and very low in the mix.

That's for starters.

Something strange has happened. Both of these were presumed to be from the original quad masters.

(I also have a file called REMEMBER THE FUTURE 44 CD SQ DECODE, four channels only, that I perhaps got from someone here...it's different from both of the above, which isn't unusual since I presume it is what it says, an SQ decode of a CD version thought to be SQ encoded. FWIW at 0:40 it sounds more like the 2004 quad than the 2023)

Has anyone got an old Q8 or CD4 version, for comparison to all this?

The new 6 channel mix , is , of course, altogether different , mostly very front-centric with an occasional circling content.


NOTES ADDED 12/8:

The answer to the mystery of the two quad mixes may be simply this: there were two quad mixes made for this album. This is indicated in the two essays in the booklet that comes with the set:

"..By the end of the week we were done and flew to London [from Oxfordshire] to mix the recordings with Barry [Hammond].....After a few days we found that the speakers in the mixing studio were out of phase and we had lost the guitar, so on the 27th, during the Zappa tour, Roye and I flew to Koln where we met Barry Hammond in Strommeln and remixed the entire album in one day - in Quadraphonic." -Derrick 'Mo' Moore (with Mick Brockett) August 2023

"Sessions for Remember the Future took place at Chipping Norton studios in Oxfordshire in August 1973 and took just over one week to record. From the beginnign the decision was made to mix the album for the Quadraphonic sound system ....In late August Mo Moore took the completed multitrack tapes to CBS Studio in London for Quadraphonic mixing. Unfortunately, upon arrival in Germany it was discovered that there was a technical problem with the mix, which resulted in certain instruments being inaudible.

A further Quadraphonic mix was undertaken at Dieter Dierks studio in Strommeln, along with a stereo version in September 1973 to everyone's satisfaction. Remember the Future was released on November 23rd 1973." --Mark Powell


Powell's quote makes it explicit that there were two quad mixes, something Mo's quote only implies. I suspect that Mo Moore's claim that the guitar was 'lost' on the first quad mix is an exaggeration; I hear guitars on both the 2004 and 2023 quad mix, just occasionally much lower in the mix on the 2023 quad, in places where the organ is much higher.

Using the original stereo mix* as reference, the instrumental balances on the 2004 quad are much closer to it at these points, than the 2023 quad is to it.

I wonder if the 2023 quad is simply the 'bad' first quad mix. [ADDED 12/9: But see my post about Part II, below.]


Also, I recall, having owned it, that the initial stereo CD releases of RtF had 'certain instruments being inaudible' and it was suspected then that a quad tape had been used as source. I wonder if it was the 'bad' quad mix...or just the front channels of one of the quad mixes. (I no longer own it to find out)




* and btw, there are differences here, too, between the original mix on the 2004 releases and the new one. This time it's EQ difference, not the mix itself. It''s a complex situation. In fact there are *three* different mastering EQs available now for the original stereo mix:
On the 2004 release, the bass EQ is the same on the DSD versus the CD layer, but the DSD layer has steadily increasing mid-treble from 1000 Hz on up to 22khz... IOW, a flat 'difference' line to 1 kHz on a graph, then a very nice smooth curve as frequency increases, indicating they were initially the same audio, but EQ was changed on one of them. Either the CD layer was dulled down, or the DSD was brightened up. Either way, that's two different masterings.
The original mix on the 2023 has a different mastering EQ from both of those. It is closer to the old DSD than the CD , but still has elevated bass and treble compared to both. So that's now three different masterings.

 

[Francis Drake]

{copying this from the other RTF thread, which is mostly fascinating posts about about shipping and boxing]


Here's a post about actual sound of this release. (Part 1 only, haven't listened to Part 2 yet). The 2023 quad -- which actually has 6 channels, with some minimal LFE content and a silent C channel -- is definitely different from the 2004 SACD quad (which was also 6 channels, with minimal content in both C and LFE), notable almost right away starting at around 0:40, the prelude to the first verse. At that point the 2004 quad has guitars, bass , drums plus low level Hammond organ in front, the rears have only guitars, but in the 2023 quad the front has bass and drums, the rears have quite loud Hammond, with nearly all the guitars shoved into the left rear channel and very low in the mix.

That's for starters.

Something strange has happened. Both of these were presumed to be from the original quad masters.

(I also have a file called REMEMBER THE FUTURE 44 CD SQ DECODE, four channels only, that I perhaps got from someone here...it's different from both of the above, which isn't unusual since I presume it is what it says, an SQ decode of a CD version thought to be SQ encoded. FWIW at 0:40 it sounds more like the 2004 quad than the 2023)

Has anyone got an old Q8 or CD4 version, for comparison to all this?

The new 6 channel mix , is , of course, altogether different , mostly very front-centric with an occasional circling content.


NOTES ADDED 12/8:

The answer to the mystery of the two quad mixes may be simply this: there were two quad mixes made for this album. This is indicated in the two essays in the booklet that comes with the set:

"..By the end of the week we were done and flew to London [from Oxfordshire] to mix the recordings with Barry [Hammond].....After a few days we found that the speakers in the mixing studio were out of phase and we had lost the guitar, so on the 27th, during the Zappa tour, Roye and I flew to Koln where we met Barry Hammond in Strommeln and remixed the entire album in one day - in Quadraphonic." -Derrick 'Mo' Moore (with Mick Brockett) August 2023

"Sessions for Remember the Future took place at Chipping Norton studios in Oxfordshire in August 1973 and took just over one week to record. From the beginnign the decision was made to mix the album for the Quadraphonic sound system ....In late August Mo Moore took the completed multitrack tapes to CBS Studio in London for Quadraphonic mixing. Unfortunately, upon arrival in Germany it was discovered that there was a technical problem with the mix, which resulted in certain instruments being inaudible.

A further Quadraphonic mix was undertaken at Dieter Dierks studio in Strommeln, along with a stereo version in September 1973 to everyone's satisfaction. Remember the Future was released on November 23rd 1973." --Mark Powell


Powell's quote makes it explicit that there were two quad mixes, something Mo's quote only implies. I suspect that Mo Moore's claim that the guitar was 'lost' on the first quad mix is an exaggeration; I hear guitars on both the 2004 and 2023 quad mix, just occasionally much lower in the mix on the 2023 quad, in places where the organ is much higher.

Using the original stereo mix* as reference, the instrumental balances on the 2004 quad are much closer to it at these points, than the 2023 quad is to it.

I wonder if the 2023 quad is simply the 'bad' first quad mix.


Also, I recall, having owned it, that the initial stereo CD releases of RtF had 'certain instruments being inaudible' and it was suspected then that a quad tape had been used as source. I wonder if it was the 'bad' quad mix...or just the front channels of one of the quad mixes. (I no longer own it to find out)




* and btw, there are differences here, too, between the original mix on the 2004 releases and the new one. This time it's EQ difference, not the mix itself. It''s a complex situation. In fact there are *three* different mastering EQs available now for the original stereo mix:
On the 2004 release, the bass EQ is the same on the DSD versus the CD layer, but the DSD layer has steadily increasing mid-treble from 1000 Hz on up to 22khz... IOW, a flat 'difference' line to 1 kHz on a graph, then a very nice smooth curve as frequency increases, indicating they were initially the same audio, but EQ was changed on one of them. Either the CD layer was dulled down, or the DSD was brightened up. Either way, that's two different masterings.
The original mix on the 2023 has a different mastering EQ from both of those. It is closer to the old DSD than the CD , but still has elevated bass and treble compared to both. So that's now three different masterings.

Another boxset to steer clear of, and just stick with the SQ LP.

I am getting the impression these box-sets can be 'not well produced, and taking the customer as a mug' sometimes.

 

[ssully]

Well, no, I wouldn't steer clear of it.

And I should now add, the 2023 quad Part II sounds very good....I think I even prefer it to the 2004 quad part II. I don't immediately detect any missing guitars on it, though I haven't done a close comparison. It may be that the only wonky parts are on part I...

The new 5.1 mix of Part II is much like Part I -- very front-centric. But also very clear, and if you are a surround fan who's annoyed when lead parts are put in the rear channels of surround mix , this is a good mix for you.

 

[jefe1]

Just got mine in listening to Quad mix. While I have the vinyl album not familiar enough with SQ mix to notice any discrepancies yet. Thanks ssully for great analysis above. How typical that the wrong discarded quad mix may have been used....by the so called professionals.
Anyways does sound clear. Beautiful box set presentation

 

[The56Kid]

Just got this today from Santa and am spinning the DTS-HD MA 5.1.

Love it!

Ben Wiseman did both the new remixes and mastering and I’m digging both. Sonically, I don’t detect any compression and have zero fatigue while cranking it. The music is rich, warm, and detailed sounding.

This is the first surround mix by Wiseman in my collection and I’m very pleased with it. Surrounds could be a tad more active, but they’re present and compliment the front soundstage nicely. Will wait to hear the Quad before voting, but this sounds freakin’ great and the music is awesome!

 

[mandrix]

I could swear there was a QR of this but evidently not. What was the CD-4 version? I found one that said "Quadro Sound" by Bacillus Records on Discogs.

 

[ssully]

Latest version of Mark Anderson's quad discography lists only SQ -- except 'SQC' for the Bellaphon version

Remember the Future.
Passport PPSD-98002 (SQ), Bacillus BPLS-19164Q (SQ) [Germany],
Bacillus-Vogue BRY.28.003 (SQ) [France],
Mayo Fonografica MGD 19002 & Bacillus Records YD-99001 (SQ) [Spain],
Bellaphon BMC 36 (SQC) [Germany],
Direction Records DRS 1003 (SQ) [New Zealand],
Passport 9167-98002 (SQ) [Canada],
PGP RTB LP 5838 (SQ) [Yugoslavia],
Real Records R 313 (SQ) [Australia],
Sabado Som OW 607 (SQ) [Brazil],
United Artists UAG 29545 (SQ) [UK]

{The French versions list Quadraphonic & Stereo Compatible on the cover, The German version of RTF has an SQ logo on the cover and Quadro on the label. All others make no mention of quad}

 

[par4ken]

I could swear there was a QR of this but evidently not. What was the CD-4 version? I found one that said "Quadro Sound" by Bacillus Records on Discogs.

AFAIK there is no reel or CD-4 of this. I think that all of the German releases were SQ encoded. I can't confirm if other release were unmarked SQ or a different stereo mix. Why do a damn stereo mix? The SQ sounds fine! I'm still waiting on the Blu-ray.

 

[paligap]

So which quad mix of this album is better, the one included in this release, or the one included on the 2004 SACD, with the center and LFE removed?

 

[mandrix]

I'm finding I like the 1973 quad mix on this BD slightly better than the 5.1. Listener bias? Not sure yet. I will have to listen again to the SACD as well.
I have a recording purported to be from a reel master that some person made a DVDA out of. I can't authenticate the provenance of it. Time to give it a spin again as well. Choice is good.

 

[par4ken]

My vote is based on the original quad version which is excellent. This is my third favourite Nektar album, behind "Recycled" and "Down to Earth". The discrete mix is a sonic upgrade from the LP for sure.

I listened to the 5.1 mix as well and at first the initial panning effects made me think wow maybe this will prove to be even better than the quad. Very quickly it settled down into a typical modern front oriented mix. Not my cup of tea!

The "stereo" mix would actually be SQ encoded. I listened to it via the S&IC. Many of the direction effects were still there but everything was muddied by excessive bass. I don't remember this to be a particularly great SQ encode. I had always assumed that this was mixed primarily to sound good in stereo with quad being of secondary importance. Upon hearing the discrete version I believe that was obviously not the case. Unlike the way CBS did things, this encode would have been done after the discrete version had already been mixed, then just ran through an encoder.

So surround and sound quality are 9-10 the same goes for the performance. Packaging is nice but the extra disc's push up the cost unnecessarily. I'm voting a nine overall.

 

[ssully]

I'd factor in that the 'original' quad mix presented here is one of two that were made back in 1973, the other being released on the 2004 SACD.

Fans of this album need to hear all three surround mixes, to fully judge.

 

[par4ken]

I'd factor in that the 'original' quad mix presented here is one of two that were made back in 1973, the other being released on the 2004 SACD.

Fans of this album need to hear all three surround mixes, to fully judge.

If you are talking this release that was a 2004 remix.

https://www.discogs.com/release/2480273-Nektar-Remember-The-Future
I doubt that two mixes were done in 1973.

 

[ssully]

I guess you simply haven't read what I posted on this thread already.

The text accompanying the new RtF box indicates there were indeed two quad mixes done in 1973.

And the 2004 wasn't really a 'remix', it simply created a very low level center and LFE from one of the 1973 quad mixes. Essentially an 'upmix'. Both extra channels can be deleted.

 

[ramokoff]

Did anyone receive scratch-free CDs number 3 and 4 (Live At Stadthalle, Muenster, Germany, 28th January 1974)?

 

[himey]

Digging the quad mix on this! New to the band. I always used to mix this band up with Renaissance. I won't any longer.

 

[SomethingAnything]

Digging the quad mix on this! New to the band. I always used to mix this band up with Renaissance. I won't any longer.

Same! (Digging the quad, I mean. I've known Nektar forever - and never confused them with Renaissance!) I've only just received this. Working my way through disc by disc. The 2023 stereo mix is a huge jump from the remaster on D1. The live stuff is somewhere between mixing desk and a good bootleg, but how lucky are we to get it. Terrific performance from their peak period. Now listening to the 5.1. Not mind-blowing, but solid. Some fun speaker movement towards the end of Pt.1. Great blu-ray authoring. Gorgeous packaging.

For some reason I was expecting an LP sized boxset, but quite like these little boxy sets anyway. Playing it through Auro 3D to make use of my heights, finding it preserves the 5.1 feel nicely while includes the presence speakers. Very happy with this. Most likely an 8 from me, but I'm also enjoying this stout I'm drinking at the same time, so could well nudge to a 9.

What a shame Recycled doesn't come with a surround blu-ray. Now there is an album made for it. And Larry, right there, ready to do it, if asked, I expect.

 

[modwerks]

Please post your thoughts and comments on this new reissue of the classic album "Remember the Future" by Nektar.
This new 50th anniversary edition contains 4 CDs and a Blu-Ray disc that includes a new 5.1 surround mix of the album alongside the original 1973 Quadraphonic mix.

Great to see these Bacillus quad albums being re-released by Esoteric? Would love to hear the Popol Vuh and Dzyan records!...