Noise-I wish I read this before I went nuts for 3 months in 2021

[marpow]

If you have some low level hum coming from your McIntosh MX122, be warned the La Scala's are seriously efficent speakers and any hum you have now will likely be 10db louder with them.

Thank you, that is great information.
I’ll add it to my research

 

[gene_stl]

I used to be crazy to get rid of hiss and "fry". It was only stereo. But when I got all my Pioneer series Twenty gear it stopped being a concern. It was all dead silent even with the volume controls set to ear shattering levels.

I always found it surprising that sometimes adding that dedicated ground cable sometimes made hum worse. Sometimes hum could be changed by turning the AC line cord in whatever socket it was in , of course back in the days when the non grounded AC plugs also were not polarized.

 

[Sonik Wiz]

Well I just learned something again on QQ. I had never heard of a power shower before.

I've never heard of a power shower either. Everywhere I've lived or visited has had fine H2O pressure with out assistance. Different counties, different needs. It does however bring to mind what seems an oddity about the Japanese. As you probably know normal customs include a shower to get clean & then a relaxing soak in a tub. A very common item over there is called the bathtub pump. Rather than waste the tub water when done it is pumped into the washing machine to use again. Really.

This must prompt next door neighbor into saying:
このノイズは何？私の受信機に何か問題があるのか？それともまた近所の風呂のポンプか？

 

[Sal1950]

I have my own well/pump set at 30 psi (pump starts)/50 psi (pump quits) and a 100 gallon tank. Of course by the time it gets inside the house the pressure is reduced intentionally, but more than adequate.

That sounds a bit on the low side to me. Our (well-holding tank) system here in the park
is kept at 60psi?
In my near 100yo home of 33 years in Chicago, the water pressure was so low I had to run around in
the shower to get wet. I'm sure that not only the distribution lines all the way from the Lake Michigan treatment plants, to the ones plumbing the inside of the house, were near closed up with rust, mineral deposits, and lead. LOL

 

[Sal1950]

Thank you, that is great information.
I’ll add it to my research

No problem, don't get me wrong, the La Scala's are great speakers, I owned a pair for 30+ years.
I did peek at the 804 D4 measurements and their Stereophile measured sensitivity,
"Bowers & Wilkins specifies the 804 D4's anechoic sensitivity as 89dB/2.83V/m. My B-weighted estimate was the same." JA
https://www.stereophile.com/content/bowers-wilkins-diamond-series-804-d4-loudspeaker-measurements
While the LaScala AL5's,
"As with the AK6, my B-weighted estimate was lower, at 101.3dB(B)/2.83V/m, but this is still the second-highest sensitivity of all the speakers I have measured" JA
https://www.stereophile.com/content/klipsch-la-scala-al5-loudspeaker-measurements
Soooo, all else being equal (which it never is) a 12db increase in the level of the slight hum you have now could end up sounding like Niagara Falls at the listening chair.

Time to first determine and correct the reason for your noise before changing anything else.
I've read this thread twice now and I'm still really confused.
Do you hear the hum as coming directly from the speakers when you put your ear to them?
Or with the speakers disconnected do you still hear a hum in the room, maybe due to one of the power supply transformers mechanical vibration hum?

 

[mandrix]

That sounds a bit on the low side to me. Our (well-holding tank) system here in the park
is kept at 60psi?
In my near 100yo home of 33 years in Chicago, the water pressure was so low I had to run around in
the shower to get wet. I'm sure that not only the distribution lines all the way from the Lake Michigan treatment plants, to the ones plumbing the inside of the house, were near closed up with rust, mineral deposits, and lead. LOL

Yes but this is a single family home. I only have a 1HP submersible pump, but all I need. Look at the draw on your park's system from multiple users.
100? or more people on a single system. Without some headroom on the system, everyone might be lacking pressure at some point.

Yeah those old cast iron pipes do accumulate some rust and crap over time. The village I grew up in was a company town where the infrastructure was laid in the early 1900's... I remember crews coming in and lifting many lines out of the ground and replacing them in the 50's and 60's they were all so clogged up. There was a truly gigantic, highly elevated water tank that served the village and the industrial complex, but even it could not overcome the corroded water lines when clogged up. Alas, though we had moved out by then, by the end of the '60's there were only two residents left, my Uncle and another family as the company would no longer sell the homes to employees, destined be torn down and the land to be mined up by giant draglines in the early '80's.

In my area, and my well was tested by State Geologists, calcium is ever prevalent due to the structure of the aquifer in Florida, and pvc pipes fare better.

I'm happy to report no ground hum has ever been attributed to any of these conditions. But those sneaky aliens...

 

[marpow]

No problem, don't get me wrong, the La Scala's are great speakers, I owned a pair for 30+ years.
I did peek at the 804 D4 measurements and their Stereophile measured sensitivity,
"Bowers & Wilkins specifies the 804 D4's anechoic sensitivity as 89dB/2.83V/m. My B-weighted estimate was the same." JA
https://www.stereophile.com/content/bowers-wilkins-diamond-series-804-d4-loudspeaker-measurements
While the LaScala AL5's,
"As with the AK6, my B-weighted estimate was lower, at 101.3dB(B)/2.83V/m, but this is still the second-highest sensitivity of all the speakers I have measured" JA
https://www.stereophile.com/content/klipsch-la-scala-al5-loudspeaker-measurements
Soooo, all else being equal (which it never is) a 12db increase in the level of the slight hum you have now could end up sounding like Niagara Falls at the listening chair.

Time to first determine and correct the reason for your noise before changing anything else.
I've read this thread twice now and I'm still really confused.
Do you hear the hum as coming directly from the speakers when you put your ear to them?
Or with the speakers disconnected do you still hear a hum in the room, maybe due to one of the power supply transformers mechanical vibration hum?

Thank you for taking the time and interest in my situation.
Long story.
I built my room from scratch, I did all the work, except for the hardwood floor and the electrical panel.
When equipment is off, I only hear the slight hum of the Niagra 5000 power conditioner. If I turn that off I hear absolute zero.
I did much research before I even started.
I crossed power cords going vertical and interconnects going horizontal.
Machines that are not out of the Niagra, are out of midsize Furmans.
Electrcian came back and with his loop measure thing, no noise coming out panel itself.
My house built in 1981, no overhead power lines, spike grounded in foundation orginal still functioning panel.
I got a 8'copper rod and 7' solid copper wire heavy guage about 1/4" drove stake 7' in ground and connected directly to new dedicated panel.
Did multi room experiment. Turned off all modem, all DirecTV. Tried individual outlets in my listening room. Took extension cord and tried different outlets in different rooms.
Disconnected and turned off all components, one at a time, just turned on, playback of music is not necessary, as it is a hum that does not go up or down. If two people are in room talking, you cannot hear it.
All along my biggest suspect was the MX122, in the end that Pre/Pro or AVR whatever you would like to call it, has to be on. I disconected that and turned on amps only, seemed to diminish quite a bit.then I decided to take the biggest risk of all.
Buy a brand new MX122, knowing that i could return it, but would have a $1200.00 restocking fee. I was more than happy to take the risk, and if it worked I would have to buy the new MX122 at $10,000.00+.
I unplugged all, took two speakers, went directly into back of new MX122, and same thing hugely dissapointed and out $1200.00 for the experiment.
My conclusion was multiple things, Floor to noise ratio? My room is dead quiet, no noise from anything. Aside from the low level hum, my rig is top notch, best I have ever heard.
Is the McIntosh or B&W equipment subject to what I hear.
When it comes to my audio hobby I am very OCD, always reading and listening to others. Getting obsesssed by low level hum can be a huge problem mentally and emotionally.
The best thing I did for myself was to find a way to stop listening to it. It is only there at 5:00am when house is dead quiet, the volume if anything makes it go away even at the lowest of volume.

Going back to my post #1 (the two articles) on this thread, it is best to let it go, I actually believe that now. Look at what I did, took me five minutes to write it but all that was done over a few months. God know I did other experiments that are too small to add. The constant pulling rig from wall, conecting and disconecting, it's crazy man, it will make you crazy.

My new venture changing my main front and right has nothing to do with hum. It has more to do with my stereo listening, I have just come to believe I am not as happy as I THINK I could be with new fronts for stereo listening.
For all types of surround listening, my rig, I will put it up against anyone, it truly is a bad ass hot rod.
But for stereo with my tinitus I feel like I could do better. IMy gut is just telling me those B&W fronts are too bright for me when listening to stereo.
My stereo listening is via my external MCH Exasound DAC which is the best. Analog RCA's out into the MX122 in the 7.1 section. In fact the only music that does not go through that DAC is Atmos which needs to be HDMI in, at least for how I like to listen, a MKV file.

I'll end with, I would like to find a new set of fronts and I am unhappy with the Niagra 5000, these two items have nothing to do with the hum, but I have let that go.

Finally SAL, I surely don't want to purchase a speaker that increases the hum, oh my God, what if the increase was now evident with volume up and down, I would shoot myself.

 

[LB-V]

Soooo, all else being equal (which it never is) a 12db increase in the level of the slight hum you have now could end up sounding like Niagara Falls at the listening chair.

I nearly went on a speaker replacement mission when I learned how a system's hums / noise and a speaker's rated sensitivy are related. I've run with the Klipsch RF series forever. They have seen untold changes in equipment, arrangements, switches, geographic relocations, etc. I've spent countless hours and debates with equipment suppliers about noise levels (audible). One finally asked, well, what speakers do you use? Their standard test environment had speakers in the 85 to 90 dB sensitivity, vs the Klipsch of 100+ that I use.

In the end, I can't hear any noise or hum during the silent moments of any song. I am indifferent if that's because my tinnitus is louder or I'm going deaf or because it is actually that quiet!! Just thankful I'm not stressing about it. I can hear the transformer hum on the old Phase Linear 700B, but I don't let that bother me. She's nearly as old as me! I always love the significant light dim in the room when she first comes to life.

I digress. I decided it did not make sense for me to change to speakers of a lower sensitivity in an attempt to lower the audible noise level. I got things quiet with a bit of an upgrade to the RCA connectors (from the cheapest you can get), painful one connection at a time troubleshooting, and my very best attempt at minimizing the ground potentials. I am hesitant to change anything (like replacing my cheap manual switches to my Zektor) because I know there will be some hum or buzz that will be introduced with the change and a need to be remedied...based on my experience.

I love the topics of hum and noise and the insanity it has brought at times to some of us. Good Lord, I hope I never get a noise level meter in my hands!

I like the premise @marpow provides in the OP, sometimes we have to trust our ears that the noise we can't hear during our listening pleaaure probably shouldn't cause us consternation.

 

[marpow]

One finally asked, well, what speakers do you use? Their standard test environment had speakers in the 85 to 90 dB sensitivity, vs the Klipsch of 100+ that I use.

I hate to admit it, but I don't fully understand the sensitivity, In the case you say, does that mean 85-90db sensitiveity to the power, electrcity put into the speaker?
La Scala Spec Sheet
The La Scala spec sheet SENSITIVITY1 105dB @ 2.83V / 1m

Would a higher number be more subject to the listener hearing more or less hum?

Is this the same as Floor To Noise Ratio?

Sorry, probably opening another can of worms, but I think collectively through are different experiences we are all pretty well aligned with our perspectives on hum.

 

[LB-V]

I hate to admit it, but I don't fully understand the sensitivity, In the case you say, does that mean 85-90db sensitiveity to the power, electrcity put into the speaker?

Nothing to admit to....yes, as I understand it. The speaker sensitvy is a measure of the audio output for a given electrical power input. It is measured for each speaker with the same or a constant level of input. The more efficient, the more output (less loss) you get for your input. So, noise levels that may not be heard on a very low efficiency speaker, could be loud and clear on a very efficient speaker. Just like any energy transition...there's always loss and a speaker sensitivity is the measure of how much loss there is.

 

[Sal1950]

Going back to my post #1 (the two articles) on this thread, it is best to let it go,

OK consider it closed.
I will only end by saying it still seems you haven't determined if it's one of two things.
1. A electro mechanical hum coming from one of more of your components, not the speakers.
2. A hum being emitted by the speakers.
If it's #1, the speaker sensitivity will have zero effect on its level.
If it's #2, the speaker sensitivity could have enormous effect.
Disconnect the speaker cables from the speaker.
At 5am if the hum is still there its #1
If it's gone it's #2

LB-V should have answered you question on sensitivity..

 

[Titch]

Yeah those old cast iron pipes do accumulate some rust and crap over time. The village I grew up in was a company town where the infrastructure was laid in the early 1900's... I remember crews coming in and lifting many lines out of the ground and replacing them in the 50's and 60's they were all so clogged up. There was a truly gigantic, highly elevated water tank that served the village and the industrial complex, but even it could not overcome the corroded water lines when clogged up. Alas, though we had moved out by then, by the end of the '60's there were only two residents left, my Uncle and another family as the company would no longer sell the homes to employees, destined be torn down and the land to be mined up by giant draglines in the early '80's.

In my area, and my well was tested by State Geologists, calcium is ever prevalent due to the structure of the aquifer in Florida, and pvc pipes fare better.

My house was built in 1967. When I decided to completely rebuild the 25 year old shower rooms and toilets in my house, the plumbers said I should also change out every single pipe in the house. Because if I didn't, the build-up of manganese sediment in any pipe over the last 55 years would mean that they were pretty much clogged. And if I didn't want to pony up the $60 000 extra it cost now, I would be - literally - in deep shit, in a short while.

I ponied up the $60 000 extra. Sure enough, only an inch left in an 8 inch sewage pipe. In future, I won't need to worry about a shower pump or new pipes, as the council installed filters to filter out manganese and other minerals two years ago.

 

[omnipotent1]

Could be worse,you could have gone down the SINAD rabbit hole and never come back

 

[marpow]

I was hoping this thread wouldn't turn into shitty subject matter.

 

[MidiMagic]

There are two ways hum (power frequency, 60 Hz or 120 Hz in north America) can get into a system. Ground loops, which are unlikely in a single-room setup, or power supply filtering.

Ground loops are caused by the fact that “ground” is a poor conductor of electricity, and there can be voltage differences between “grounds” on pieces of equipment that are connected to earth in multiple locations. As I nored, not likely in a single room configuration, but if you end up with a distributed system, it might be worth disconnecting the remote gear one at a time and seeing if that helps. There are two ways to fix ground loops, and they are re,arkably different. One is to lift any ground from the remote location, so the circuit causing the voltage difference between the pieces of equipment is broken (no ground loop current through the shields of your connecting cables). The other is to provide a large ground connection between the pieces of equipment, thereby shunting that shield current. I suspect you already know that, but I’ve run into experienced CCTV installers who were clueless.

There are other possible sources of interference, but it’s unlikely they would be confused with hum.

Power supply hum is caused by ripple that isn’t filtered out by the filter capacitors. If it’s in a low-level processor, it probably won’t change much with volume, but a power amp will definitely increase hum as the load on the supply increases. You can add capacitance, or you can regulate the voltage so the hum is chopped off.

And then there’s the possibility that it’s acoustic. The sound is leaking in from outside. Unplugging everything in the room and measuring the result could reveal an issue leaking through the walls, floor, or ceiling of the room.

My room is not all that soundproof, because it’s a “bonus” room over the garage with part of the wall/ceiling only 6” from the roof, so it’s not unisual for traffic, aircraft, or even weather sounds to show up from time to time. It’s impractical to add more soundproofing, so I live with it.

Some of my older gear is suffering from dried-out electrolytic capacitors, and I have several projects ahead of me to address that fact. Nobody’s room is perfect, but it’s something we all strive for.

A third is to put an audio transformer in the line that passes AC, but no DC or grounding.

 

[marpow]

If it's #2, the speaker sensitivity could have enormous effect.

Yes it is #2, it is not noise from any components, off or on.

Yes, lets wrap this up with my final note.
I talked to Upscale Audio in SoCal.
The person that I talked to was a great listener and did not try to sell me anything, very high class.
Based on my info, looking for a pair of front left/right stereo speakers, noting they will be used in MCH listening also.
Acknowledging my slight Tinitus and my unhappiness with the brightness of my current B&W's.
I did not waste his time with hum questions.

He said he thinks I would benefit from a fabric dome tweeter.
He did not mention prices or which specific speakers in the line of speakers and suggested these two brands.

SPENDOR SPEAKER COMPANY

FYNE AUDIO SPEAKER COMPANY

I have not heard of these two companys, nor have any experience.

 

[DuncanS]

Yes it is #2, it is not noise from any components, off or on.

Yes, lets wrap this up with my final note.
I talked to Upscale Audio in SoCal.
The person that I talked to was a great listener and did not try to sell me anything, very high class.
Based on my info, looking for a pair of front left/right stereo speakers, noting they will be used in MCH listening also.
Acknowledging my slight Tinitus and my unhappiness with the brightness of my current B&W's.
I did not waste his time with hum questions.

He said he thinks I would benefit from a fabric dome tweeter.
He did not mention prices or which specific speakers in the line of speakers and suggested these two brands.

SPENDOR SPEAKER COMPANY

FYNE AUDIO SPEAKER COMPANY

I have not heard of these two companys, nor have any experience.

Spendor is a British company that has been making speakers since the 1960s, a good make set up by an ex-BBC engineer (I've never owned any, just remember drooling at Hi-Fi/Quad kit & speakers in the 60s & 70s Hi-Fi mags!) Spendor

Fyne is another British company (correctly from my home country, Scotland!), I've never heard their speakers, but they do have a good reputation FYNE AUDIO - HiFi, Home Theatre And Custom Install Speakers

 

[BillTubes]

I too had a hum problem. I was convinced that it was caused by either a ground loop or poor PS filtering. After a long process of eliminating these causes, it was determined that the cause was mechanical vibrations rattling the power supply chassis from the transformer. I was able to solve the problem by using rubber shims on the mounting hardware to dampen the vibrations. These vibrations could even transmit through the table the Power Supply is sitting on.