Obscure: For those with 78s

[atrocity]

I read from page 9. It seems they have already built in the changes to offset for speed. Personally I feel it is better to do it before and not have to compensate for speed/pitch changes. That may be because I am used to it.

I'm absolutely the same way. I figure out a routine that seems to work at the time and it eventually becomes The Right Way To Do It in my head.

As to noise reduction, if you do it as the 45 speed, you are possibly over correcting, but I can not be sure. I prefer to hear exactly what I am taking out at the correct pitch.

I agree. There's also the matter of time involved. I've recently gotten it into my head that ClickRepair works best if done in two passes, one with DeClick and one with DeCrackle (at which point I also have it merge to mono). Well, if you're doing that with records played too slow, you have to sit through the initial capture, sit through the first NR pass, then through the second NR pass. Can you say "tedious"? I've done it the allegedly "right" way where I used ClickRepair on the slow file and I've done it after speeding it up and I can't really tell the difference. But of course, we're talking about recordings that are, in at least some cases, well over 100 years old. There's only so much to work with in the first place!

As to A/Bing the two files, if the difference is minor, I am the same way. If the result is something excessive like boomy, muddy bass plus extended rumble or a drastic harshness to treble and voices or excessive needle scratch, it can be obvious.

Total agreement. And it can be frustrating with some of the older records that require either very little rolloff or none at all. In those cases, the correct EQ winds up leaving you with a lot more surface noise, but of course adding rolloff muddies the HF. Mr. Davies also sells another bit of software to deal with that type of noise as well, but I've never tried it. Attempts with similar things in the past disappointed me, but I really should at least check out the free trial some day.

All that aside, if you're curious at all about Equalizer, just remember that it's *free* so you can test drive it for nothing.

 

[atrocity]

Turntable manufacturers don't really have a choice on using 78.26 as it is tied to the frequency of the power lines at 60 cycles.

I know that was an issue in the days of synchronous motors, but is it still true once you get into quartz locking? Is the vibrating crystal (or however it works) still at the mercy of line frequency? That would seem to at least somewhat negate the point.

I assume that you played yours with the cart wired for vertical playback?

The deck has a switch. I find that I get sound out of vertical Edisons on either setting (though obviously the sound changes depending on the position of the switch) but it's absolutely freaky to play a standard lateral record on the vertical setting. You get very normal sounding 78 record noise, but the music simply disappears. Of course, you can also do the "wiring" in software (in fact, it's built in to Equalizer) but I've never experimented with it. I have a few Edisons and that one Pathe, so it hasn't been a priority. I suspect I need a much larger stylus for the Edisons. I've digitized them, but they don't sound that great.

 

[Circular Vibes]

I appreciate all the wisdom you're dropping here, @Circular Vibes . At the risk of hijacking this thread, I'm including a couple of photos, since neither the arm on my Bogen nor my ELAC quite fits your description. (The ELAC has a black curved headshell, but a straight chromed tonearm, with a black sleeve that slides along the rear of the arm for adjusting tracking weight. No antiskate.)

View attachment 44033 View attachment 44034

The arm on your Lenco is an in between model and is still fine for a Grado. No antiskating is all. I forgot about that model. Just beware of changing the shell too often as the threads may wear faster than other arms.

 

[winopener]

The deck has a switch. I find that I get sound out of vertical Edisons on either setting (though obviously the sound changes depending on the position of the switch) but it's absolutely freaky to play a standard lateral record on the vertical setting. You get very normal sounding 78 record noise, but the music simply disappears.

useful for noise reduction?

 

[par4ken]

The Lenco arm was damaged or missing parts (I forget which). I put my Aristron arm from my Ariston turntable on it, using my Decca Arm on the Aristron. The last time I used the Lenco it was working fine but haven't tried any 78's yet.

 

[atrocity]

useful for noise reduction?

That's a really interesting suggestion!

 

[par4ken]

In addition to my ELAC, I recently picked up a cast-off Bogen (essentially a Lenco L70 under a different name). The consensus seems to be that turntables like these with "high-mass" tonearms want heavier-tracking cartridges like Stantons, Shures, and Pickerings. Generally speaking that would rule out Grado--although I don't know if that rule of thumb also applies to the Grado 78 or only the stereo cartridges.

I pulled out the Lenco the other day and put on a couple of LP's to check out it's operation, and it was working great with the Pickering V-15 cartridge. That table was missing the dust cover but I purchased a NOS Connoisseur BD2 dust cover and it fits perfectly around the metal deck just doesn't cover the entire plinth. The Grado 78C that I ordered came today so I pulled out my 78 preamp. It's modeled after the McIntosh C8 but missing the extra inputs base and treble and Aural compensation. I guess that I didn't complete the power supply but was able to rig it up for testing. The fist record That I pulled out "Bing Crosby" was broken, as heavy as those things are they sure are fragile! I tried out a few records and played with the equalization a bit. Although the 78 background noise is audible it's much lower than I remember. I'm using the Pickering with the 78 stylus attached, checked tracking force and it was set to 3.5 grams. I don't think that I really needed the Grado but will try it out latter. The Ariston tonearm I'm using doesn't have a detachable headshell, so it's bit of a pain to remount.

 

[gvl_guy]

(I hope it's okay that I post this here.)

To anyone who is a 78 collector, I have my Mom & Dad's South Pacific album from Al Goodman & his Orchestra (plus some old cardboard Hit of the Week records that were my grandparents) that I cannot play. Based on Discogs, the value of all of this stuff is probably a couple of bucks. I can't play them, but I would love it if there is someone with a collection who can. I'd be willing to part with them for the cost of shipping alone.

I'm not looking for someone who really just wants to turn this around and sell it at some yard sale, (not that you'd get much) but someone who is more of a collector. If these were a dog, I'd say I'm looking for a good home for him.

Thanks

 

[par4ken]

I'm not really a 78 collector, I just have my mothers old collection, important to me for that very reason.
The problem with 78's is that they are so fragile, I doubt that you could ship them without breakage. Best if someone local could take them off your hands. Like you I like to give things away to people who will use them and appreciate them, not those who just want to turn them over a profit!

 

[DuncanS]

I have all my late father's 78s, when my parents down-sized their house my mother wanted them thrown away so he said would I look after them - so a reversal of roles as I used to leave stuff at their house! I was looking to get a deck which played them so I could put them on CD for my father, when sadly he died. Some interesting music from Fats Waller through to classical. I can't get rid of them, so 11 years on and they are still sitting there un-played.

 

[rustyandi]

When I started to buy records I had a Bill Hally
and the Comets and Gene Vincent 78
My first 78 Was Dog Face Soldier/Film To Hell and Back
Soon after 45s came out and I through them out
I used to be in a Band and we used to get 45s from a disc jockey
so we could learn them and play at the dance,s the night that he would first play them on the radio the crowd would think we were
Shit hot I had a large pile of 45s and in those days we did not take care of them and when I got hitched and played them on a stereo I had they were so bad I dumped them

 

[John Svensson]

They are shipped all the time, Utube demos to do safely. Just immobilize between 2 cardboard sheets and then ship in a larger box, with peanuts. I have a collection of 50's rock and Bop on 78's, no real interest in Musicals though.

 

[atrocity]

Turntable manufacturers don't really have a choice on using 78.26 as it is tied to the frequency of the power lines at 60 cycles. I forget the exact number in 50 cycle regions, kinda like 77.92 rpm.

Resurrecting this thread after almost five years because I gave in to temptation and bought a new turntable and headshell/cartridge/stylus for 78s (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07N3S4X3P and https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07JKG3GHB). Using a stroboscopic disc for 78.26 showed that it was indeed very slightly slow.

At a friend's suggestion, I downloaded an RPM app for my Android phone that showed the turntable's 33 was indeed 33.3, 45 was 44.9 and 78 was wobbling between 77.8 and 77.9. Of course, I have no clue how accurate that method of measurement is, but the fact that you mentioned 77.92 makes me think you're onto something.

So I digitized an old acoustic Victor that I had previously done via a player that could be set to 76.59. This time I captured at what the new machine calls "78", assumed it was really 79, digitally sped it up afterward and...it sounds like the same speed as my capture from 12 years ago.

Though I'm still bent out of shape and pouting that quartz lock apparently relies on line frequency, which I thought was what it was supposed to get away from!

 

[quadsearcher]

Resurrecting this thread after almost five years because I gave in to temptation and bought a new turntable and headshell/cartridge/stylus for 78s (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07N3S4X3P and https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07JKG3GHB). Using a stroboscopic disc for 78.26 showed that it was indeed very slightly slow.

At a friend's suggestion, I downloaded an RPM app for my Android phone that showed the turntable's 33 was indeed 33.3, 45 was 44.9 and 78 was wobbling between 77.8 and 77.9. Of course, I have no clue how accurate that method of measurement is, but the fact that you mentioned 77.92 makes me think you're onto something.

So I digitized an old acoustic Victor that I had previously done via a player that could be set to 76.59. This time I captured at what the new machine calls "78", assumed it was really 79, digitally sped it up afterward and...it sounds like the same speed as my capture from 12 years ago.

Though I'm still bent out of shape and pouting that quartz lock apparently relies on line frequency, which I thought was what it was supposed to get away from!

Can't the AT turntable vary the speed on 78 via the pitch control?

 

[atrocity]

Can't the AT turntable vary the speed on 78 via the pitch control?

Yes, but that disengages the quartz lock. It's been my experience going back to at least 1977 that any TT without quartz lock "wanders". Whether it's audible or not is a different matter, but it just bugs me on a fundamental level.

Though I probably should experiment with it to be sure that's still an issue in 2024. The problem is that doing so would be a constructive, adult act and I'm much better at simply complaining.

I found this reference to 77.92:

"Motor speeds were standardised in the pre-LP era. In 60 Hz regions a two-pole, AC synchronous motor running at 3600 RPM geared down by a 46:1 ratio will produce 78.26 RPM. In regions that use 50 Hz current, the standard 77.92 RPM is derived from a two-pole, 3000 RPM motor and a 77:2 ratio. The advantage of 33⅓ RPM is that it divides exactly into 3000 and 3600, so the speed is precise in regions which have either a 50Hz or a 60Hz AC supply."

 

[rustyandi]

Yes, but that disengages the quartz lock. It's been my experience going back to at least 1977 that any TT without quartz lock "wanders". Whether it's audible or not is a different matter, but it just bugs me on a fundamental level.

Though I probably should experiment with it to be sure that's still an issue in 2024. The problem is that doing so would be a constructive, adult act and I'm much better at simply complaining.

I found this reference to 77.92:

"Motor speeds were standardised in the pre-LP era. In 60 Hz regions a two-pole, AC synchronous motor running at 3600 RPM geared down by a 46:1 ratio will produce 78.26 RPM. In regions that use 50 Hz current, the standard 77.92 RPM is derived from a two-pole, 3000 RPM motor and a 77:2 ratio. The advantage of 33⅓ RPM is that it divides exactly into 3000 and 3600, so the speed is precise in regions which have either a 50Hz or a 60Hz AC supply."

My laser t/table plays 78s I cracked a 78 and stuck it together and played it there was a pop every time but with the right program you could fix it it could not be played with a needle
just for fun Les Paul 78s

 

[atrocity]

My laser t/table plays 78s I cracked a 78 and stuck it together and played it there was a pop every time but with the right program you could fix it it could not be played with a needle
just for fun Les Paul 78s

I'm envious!

 

[MidiMagic]

Actually, with an idler or belt drive, the ratios are not constrained to integers. It's actually a ratio of the driven pulley diameter to the drive pulley diameter. The Lenco B55 could be set for ANY speed from 28 rpm to 87 rpm.

 

[atrocity]

I received a very nice response from Audio-Technica customer service saying that their 78 speed is in fact exactly 78.00.

 

[MidiMagic]

I received a very nice response from Audio-Technica customer service saying that their 78 speed is in fact exactly 78.00.

Too bad the records are recorded at 78.26 rpm.