Oh no - Foobar problems

[GOS]

I thought it was if you use 32:1 decimation and convert to 32 bit floating point at 88.2k sample rate.
The output can be anywhere between -6db and +6db, so you need to convert to floating point first so you don't lose that 1 bit of resolution (with -6) or clip (with +6).
Normalize the level with respect to 0db and then you can put it in 24 bit fixed point format.

That's what I currently do, within Foobar.

 

[jimfisheye]

That's what I've been doing using XLD (X Lossless Decoder).

Normally I tend to not trust anyone and like to test things myself...
But I don't have DSD converters (AD or DA) or a DSD format DAW app. I don't have any utility to convert PCM to DSD either right now either. (That people are converting DSD to PCM and not asking for the other way around should tell you something...)
So, I'm going by the brochure on this one!

If I had an allegedly lossless PCM to DSD conversion app, I'd convert one back and do a null test in a DSD format DAW. A perfect null from subtracting one file from the other is as black and white as it can get that they are 100% identical sets of ones and zeros.

 

[J. PUPSTER]

Heck maybe we're looking at this all wrong, could be the way the iso was created somehow especially if you've accomplished the same thing before and it did work?

 

[GOS]

Heck maybe we're looking at this all wrong, could be the way the iso was created somehow especially if you've accomplished the same thing before and it did work?

I wish! Actually, I've tried multiple iso files. The most recent one, I purchased from Native DSD. All give me the same "warning" message.

 

[GOS]

That's what I've been doing using XLD (X Lossless Decoder).

Normally I tend to not trust anyone and like to test things myself...
But I don't have DSD converters (AD or DA) or a DSD format DAW app. I don't have any utility to convert PCM to DSD either right now either. (That people are converting DSD to PCM and not asking for the other way around should tell you something...)
So, I'm going by the brochure on this one!

If I had an allegedly lossless PCM to DSD conversion app, I'd convert one back and do a null test in a DSD format DAW. A perfect null from subtracting one file from the other is as black and white as it can get that they are 100% identical sets of ones and zeros.

That all said.......how do we (Joe General Public) actually know for sure that what we have is a lossless conversion? I mean, I can take a vinyl rip, convert it to flac and it tells me it's lossless. OK, we know that can't be........so how can we for sure know?

That said, part 2. You mean to tell me that all these weeks and months I spent ripping my SACD via my OPPO.....and then converted the iso to Flac is not truly lossless? I sure thought it was.... (not talking to you Jim, just using this post to further bitch/question, etc)

 

[GOS]

So ironic, that "I'm" the one who started this damn thread a couple years ago. I truly struggle wrapping my brain around all this, and this is just one more notch in my belt. lol.

 

[DuncanS]

That all said.......how do we (Joe General Public) actually know for sure that what we have is a lossless conversion? I mean, I can take a vinyl rip, convert it to flac and it tells me it's lossless. OK, we know that can't be........so how can we for sure know?

That said, part 2. You mean to tell me that all these weeks and months I spent ripping my SACD via my OPPO.....and then converted the iso to Flac is not truly lossless? I sure thought it was.... (not talking to you Jim, just using this post to further bitch/question, etc)

I doubt if any of us could hear the difference if there was any these days! I'm assuming you're going from DSD or 24-bit PCM to 24-bit FLAC

 

[J. PUPSTER]

I know I can convert my ripped SACD's dsf files to flac in Foobar, but I've never tried it through an iso; could be Foobar just don't likey!

 

[GOS]

I know I can convert my ripped SACD's dsf files to flac in Foobar, but I've never tried it through an iso; could be Foobar just don't likey!

LOL! Oh, it likey. I've done it dozens of times in the past, never getting this warning message.

 

[GOS]

LOL! Oh, it likey. I've done it dozens of times in the past, never getting this warning message.

To be clear, I can convert the iso to Flac, it's just telling me it won't be lossless. Which aggravates the hell out of me. Obviously...

 

[J. PUPSTER]

To be clear, I can convert the iso to Flac, it's just telling me it won't be lossless. Which aggravates the hell out of me. Obviously...

Just to be crystal clear - you've converted DST64 or DSD in iso to flac before "without" getting the "won't be lossless" message?

 

[jimfisheye]

That all said.......how do we (Joe General Public) actually know for sure that what we have is a lossless conversion? I mean, I can take a vinyl rip, convert it to flac and it tells me it's lossless. OK, we know that can't be........so how can we for sure know?

That said, part 2. You mean to tell me that all these weeks and months I spent ripping my SACD via my OPPO.....and then converted the iso to Flac is not truly lossless? I sure thought it was.... (not talking to you Jim, just using this post to further bitch/question, etc)

Erm... You can make a guess on weather or not something is lossless by looking for artifacts (or the absence thereof). But that's still a guess and NOT definitive.
And of course, the vinyl -> AD process is very much not lossless. Literally analog generational.

The only way to confirm if a process is lossless:
Original file -> processed file in new format -> process the last step back to the original format -> subtract the last step from the original file.
If the subtraction yields a 100% null (all zeros) file, then that process is lossless. If a single one or zero bit changed... then it isn't.

If you don't have the tools required for that, then you have to trust the brochure.
I didn't invest in DSD hardware and DAW software (nor will I ever)... so I've only got the brochure to go by for this one.

I can say that, being familiar with various different artifacts of degradation with everything from lossy format limitations to things going wrong, the 32:1 decimation conversion doesn't have any obvious artifact. If it's still technically lossy... it's as near to a moot point as it gets. Reducing PCM audio from 24 bit to 16 bit for example, can be obviously detected and heard. And you know you need a reference system to even hear this. So, I'm kind of OK with the brochure for now, is what I'm saying.

 

[GOS]

Just to be crystal clear - you've converted DST64 or DSD in iso to flac before "without" getting the "won't be lossless" message?

Yeah, been doing this same procedure for a couple years now and never get that message.



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[LuvMyQuad]

To be clear, I can convert the iso to Flac, it's just telling me it won't be lossless. Which aggravates the hell out of me. Obviously...

The way I see it, the message you are getting from Foobar is correct. The fact that you only recently starting getting it is what may have changed, maybe due to some update to Foobar or one of its plugins.

The conversion process is DSD to PCM to FLAC. The only part of that conversion that is truly lossless is the last step. The first step is a format conversion and I don't think there is any claim attached to the DSD to PCM conversion algorithm as being lossless.

With respect to no DSD pass through, I think that's correct too. If you play the ISO using Foobar, it converts to PCM and outputs that, correct?

If you allow the conversion after you get the message, what do you get for a file?

 

[skherbeck]

I’m gonna test all this out tonight... I usually use my Oppo to rip SACDs to .iso, then use foobar to convert the iso to Flac (I think this is the same process you use, Gene)... if I get the same message, maybe it means there was some kind of update? We’ll see...

 

[J. PUPSTER]

Also, have you had any recent updates to Windows - possibly some evil dll shite going rotten via Ghost in the Machine

 

[LuvMyQuad]

I’m gonna test all this out tonight... I usually use my Oppo to rip SACDs to .iso, then use foobar to convert the iso to Flac (I think this is the same process you use, Gene)... if I get the same message, maybe it means there was some kind of update? We’ll see...

My routine is to rip the DSF files from disk and then use Foobar to convert to FLAC. I don't rip an ISO. The last time I did it (the DV Raiders release) there was no new message.

 

[GOS]

The way I see it, the message you are getting from Foobar is correct. The fact that you only recently starting getting it is what may have changed, maybe due to some update to Foobar or one of its plugins.

The conversion process is DSD to PCM to FLAC. The only part of that conversion that is truly lossless is the last step. The first step is a format conversion and I don't think there is any claim attached to the DSD to PCM conversion algorithm as being lossless.

With respect to no DSD pass through, I think that's correct too. If you play the ISO using Foobar, it converts to PCM and outputs that, correct?

If you allow the conversion after you get the message, what do you get for a file?

So, here is what Foobar shows me if I simply load the iso and hit play. (no converting, I mean)

And, here's what I get when I go ahead with conversion (allowing warning message) when loading Flac

And, digging deeper, here are the properties of the flac file, as defined in Foobar.

 

[sukothai]

Go to the File/Preferences/SACD panel and check your "Output Mode:" as shown below:

If it is PCM, then you shouldn't get the warning message. If it is DSD, then you will get the warning message.

 

[GOS]

Go to the File/Preferences/SACD panel and check your "Output Mode:" as shown below:

View attachment 44875

If it is PCM, then you shouldn't get the warning message. If it is DSD, then you will get the warning message.

OK, well, that's how I have mine set, only I have 88,200 selected for sample rate.