Please welcome Bob Vosgien to QQ, the mastering engineer of the CTA Quad DTS Disc!!

[Perp]

Tres Hombres? One of my favorite albums!
I need to make a phone call....

A great start, indeed!

 

[timbre4]

Bob,

Would be curious to know what your take is on the Eric Johnson - Ah Via Musicom DVD-A from Capitol. Eric Johnson was reportedly put out for not being consulted and there was talk on his website (2003) of re-doing it with all the correct tracks being utilized this time. Then that promise faded away without any further discussion. I secured a copy and opened it just a few weeks ago. While the fidelity is outstanding, you can tell certain guitar embellishments are different. Just curious what you might know and could comment on from the inside track.

I have just about all of the Capitol DVD-As produced, lacking Dave Koz I guess.

Thanks, Tim

 

[BlarJotunn]

The ELP "Brain Salad Surgery" and Crowded House titles are great... I would though recommend reissues of these DVD-A titles (as well as many others) as they are highly sought after and go for big bucks on eBay.

I completely disagree. I don't think it's worth the label going through all the work required to authorize and press these discs and their packaging, just so we can save a few bucks to own one copy, especially not when unreleased quad titles are on the table. Reissues of old quad titles should also be a WAY higher priority than repressing titles already available in high-rez digital. Sales would be unimpressive on titles that didn't sell well to begin with but now most serious collectors already have. Besides, ELP's BSS is available for relatively cheap on SACD.

 

[Old Quad Guy]

I completely disagree. I don't think it's worth the label going through all the work required to authorize and press these discs and their packaging, just so we can save a few bucks to own one copy, especially not when unreleased quad titles are on the table. Reissues of old quad titles should also be a WAY higher priority than repressing titles already available in high-rez digital. Sales would be unimpressive on titles that didn't sell well to begin with but now most serious collectors already have. Besides, ELP's BSS is available for relatively cheap on SACD.

I agree with you 100%. The thinking though was in terms of plus, plus, not either or. DVD-Audio titles are already created and if the rights are still there a run of a certain title, like say “Hotel California” would be simple. Many people still do not have these and “Lucky Man“ by ELP in surround was only available on the DVD-A version. But you’re absolutely right…. The DVD-Audio 5.1 mixes that were released by Rhino 10 years ago although surround cousins with Quadraphonic, are completely different animals and were mixed under different circumstances in other eras. Quadraphonic titles would be much bigger sellers. There is a market for them now that grows day by day with every new surround system bought to complement one’s HDTV setup or to hear music in surround. And if there’s an unknown, unreleased Quadraphonic mix of “Hotel California,” all of us would rather have that!

Please Rhino give us more Quadraphonic titles! Not only because they’re the greatest mixes of all time, but the tapes need preservation now and not later.

 

[Old Quad Guy]

Jim,
Thanks so much for the kind words on the mastering of the CTA disc. Your observations are amazingly spot on with regards to what I was trying to achieve with the mastering of this disc.
The volume control on our home systems really is a great device isn't it?

Bob

Hi Bob,
Yes sir, the volume knob is a great device.

Bob, I was curious as to the archival records of the Quadraphonic material that are in the vaults that Rhino / Capitol has access to in relation to what’s actually there. I’m not sure one would know (but perhaps could bring attention to the right person), I noticed on the list that Steve Miller’s “The Joker” and John Lennon’s “Imagine” titles were not there…. Both of these titles along with John Lennon’s “Walls and Bridges” (which is on the list, #9 Dream sounding great in Quadraphonic) have only been released on Q8 tape in the 1970s as of today.

Also, it would be of great interest to the Quad community if these titles are in Capital's vaults as they were slated for release, but did not make it to final release for unknown reasons:

RINGO STARR - Ringo. Apple Q8W-3413 (Q8)
JOHN LENNON - Mind Games. Apple Q8W-3414 (Q8)
PINK FLOYD - Animals. Columbia JCQ-34474 (SQ), CAQ-34474 (DQ8)

In other words, did any of the above 3 titles make it to the record company or its vaults back in the 1970s and could they be there now? It would be interesting to know more about these titles and where the finished tapes / mixes are now. In going through the vaults I'm guessing careful notes are being taken as to what is there now. Thanks.

Thank you very much Bob for your help here and your contributions for Quadraphonic to happen now for all of us as we move into the 21st century.

Jim

 

[winopener]

Sure!

Last A&M Quad: 1975 (Mangione/Bellavia)
Last ABC Quad: 1975 (Rufus/Rufusized)
Last Atlantic Quad: 1975 (Spinners/Pick of the Litter)
Last Asylum Quad: 1976 (Mitchell/Hissing of Summer Lawns)
Last Arista Quad: 1976 (Manilow/This One's For You)
Last Columbia Double-Inventory Quad: 1977 (Return to Forever/Musicmagic)
Last Columbia Single-Inventory Quad: 1977 (Wagner/Love Feast of the Apostles)
Last RCA Quad: 1978 (Tomita/Kosmos)
Last RCA US Quad (Imported from Japan): 1979 (Tomita/Bolero)
Last Reprise Quad: 1975 (Sinatra/Main Event)
Last Warner Brothers Quad: 1975 (Graham Central Station/Ain't No Doubt About It)

missing something:
Last Virgin Quad: 1979 (Mike Oldfield/Exposed)

 

[winopener]

Just to give you an idea how long things could take, I mastered the CTA disc around eight months ago, and it was just released a month ago.
Bob

Probably there has been a change in-between: since you mastered the CTA tape to digital 24/96 in september the original release schedule should had been in november-december as a dvd-audio - the Copyright 2009 on the CTA package and the dvd-a logo suggest this; the plan was cancelled, then someone at Rhino said "well, we're sitting on a job almost done and already paid. You don't want dvd-a anymore? Ok, let's do a dvd-v only with dts and let's see how it goes".

BTW, who's the actual owner of Stax? Atlantic or Fantasy? I see cd releases of stax stuff from a bunch of different labels and can't figure out who's really holding the catalogue.

 

[Bob Vosgien]

Probably there has been a change in-between: since you mastered the CTA tape to digital 24/96 in september the original release schedule should had been in november-december as a dvd-audio - the Copyright 2009 on the CTA package and the dvd-a logo suggest this; the plan was cancelled, then someone at Rhino said "well, we're sitting on a job almost done and already paid. You don't want dvd-a anymore? Ok, let's do a dvd-v only with dts and let's see how it goes".

BTW, who's the actual owner of Stax? Atlantic or Fantasy? I see cd releases of stax stuff from a bunch of different labels and can't figure out who's really holding the catalogue.

As I said before in post #62, the DVD-A logo on the CTA disc was a TYPO. There was never any plans to make this a DVD-A disc.

 

[Q-Eight]

Bob,

So what do you think the next move will be? Are there any preliminary reports as to how well (or how poorly? ) the Chicago disc is selling? If it sells well, do you think there would be any chance that you or Rhino could prepare two or three new titles for around the Christmas rush?

 

[Chris Gerhard]

Probably there has been a change in-between: since you mastered the CTA tape to digital 24/96 in september the original release schedule should had been in november-december as a dvd-audio - the Copyright 2009 on the CTA package and the dvd-a logo suggest this; the plan was cancelled, then someone at Rhino said "well, we're sitting on a job almost done and already paid. You don't want dvd-a anymore? Ok, let's do a dvd-v only with dts and let's see how it goes".

BTW, who's the actual owner of Stax? Atlantic or Fantasy? I see cd releases of stax stuff from a bunch of different labels and can't figure out who's really holding the catalogue.

To the best of my knowledge, Concord Music Group owns Stax and Fantasy and Warner owns Atlantic.

Chris

 

[bmoura]

Probably there has been a change in-between: since you mastered the CTA tape to digital 24/96 in september the original release schedule should had been in november-december as a dvd-audio - the Copyright 2009 on the CTA package and the dvd-a logo suggest this; the plan was cancelled, then someone at Rhino said "well, we're sitting on a job almost done and already paid. You don't want dvd-a anymore? Ok, let's do a dvd-v only with dts and let's see how it goes".

BTW, who's the actual owner of Stax? Atlantic or Fantasy? I see cd releases of stax stuff from a bunch of different labels and can't figure out who's really holding the catalogue.

The early Stax recordings reverted to Atlantic (vs. staying with Stax) as part of a distribution deal Stax had with Atlantic. The later recordings on Stax were owned by Stax - and then later sold to Fantasy and then to Concord, as part of their purchase of Fantasy. Check the excellent book on the history of Stax: "Soulsville U.S.A.: The Story of Stax Records" - for details.

Speaking of Concord, they just bought Rounder as well !

 

[grill]

...If it sells well, do you think there would be any chance that you or Rhino could prepare two or three new titles for around the Christmas rush?

Oh yes, Rhino please, let us enjoy some nice Xmas quad-boxes

 

[Perp]

Wait until you hear what Floyd Toole, retired Vice President of Acoustical Engineering for Harman International Industries, Inc, has to say about Quad.
Most will not like his remark.
I agree with him to an extent but would rather listen to Quad than 2-channel, myself.
http://twit.tv/htg14

 

[Bob Vosgien]

Bob,

Would be curious to know what your take is on the Eric Johnson - Ah Via Musicom DVD-A from Capitol. Eric Johnson was reportedly put out for not being consulted and there was talk on his website (2003) of re-doing it with all the correct tracks being utilized this time. Then that promise faded away without any further discussion. I secured a copy and opened it just a few weeks ago. While the fidelity is outstanding, you can tell certain guitar embellishments are different. Just curious what you might know and could comment on from the inside track.

I have just about all of the Capitol DVD-As produced, lacking Dave Koz I guess.

Thanks, Tim

Hi Tim,
Yes I did master the Eric Johnson DVD-A, and I looked in my collection at home and realized I don't have a copy!
Yes, I'm sure the fidelity is excellent since the 5.1 remix was recorded on a Studer 2" machine with a custom 8 track head stack we had made originally to play back the 1" 4-track Beatle masters back in 1987. That Studer was also used on the Crowded House 5.1 along with the Al Green and Queen "Night at the Opera" disc's. Eric was upset that some extra guitar tracks were used in the 5.1 remix and wanted the disc pulled off the shelves immediately. I'm guessing but, Capitol probably told Eric that he could remix the project but he would have to cover the costs since a good chunk of money was already spent on the project. Like Warner Bros, I don't think Capitol made any money on the DVD-A's they put out.

 

[winopener]

I don't think Capitol made any money on the DVD-A's they put out.

To be fair, the few Capitol dvd-a were the toughest one to find, there was something very wrong with the distribution of these titles. Nowadays we're more or less all used to "buy online" instead of brick&mortar store, it was not so in 2000-2005. The only Capitol title i was able to buy in a store was Rem Document, for all the others i had to rely on ebay and similar stuff and it took quite a while to track down the Al Green Greatest Hits.
How few of these were pressed at their time? Other than the "former dvd-a later dualdisc" (example: REM on Warner) and some single title here and there (Metallica just reprinted their dvd-a) i suppose there has been only one pressing run for dvd-a titles.

 

[John Svensson]

Finally read through this thread and I'm giddy.......any of the Bob mentioned mixes <Brothers & Sisters, Close To The Edge, Trilogy> would have me peeing my pants if they come out. I'd buy in any format
though at this stage I 'd think DVD would maximize sales......but I don't care to stir up that discussion any further. Bring em on, I might even finally convert my brother if the product were out there. John S.

 

[timbre4]

Thanks for the EJ DVD-A details; I'm sure the costs were enough to make a revised version go away quietly.

If I decide to part with my copy, I'll let you know FIRST!

 

[ArnoldLayne]

Welcome to the surround community Bob, I too am very glad to have you here.

I've been hesitant to purchase this release, since it's not in lossless format. Also, Warner has been on my "black listing" after what I saw fellows in the U.S. suffer when the Genesis 1970-1975 SACD box was released. But I have just now ordered my copy of CTA, following my principle to support surround releases. After all, it'll be a better bang for the buck than Lou Reed's MMM...

Blu-ray would have been my choice, since lossless is my game. I suppose royalty issues force Warner to choose one format for the release. But I truly hope the uncompressed source is stored away safely for eventual re-releases in the future. Hires surround is becoming bigger and bigger, I believe BD players, HD mediaplayers and HTPC are becoming much more widespread than DVD-A and SACD devices ever were. It's merely a matter of superior technology winning over previous formats such as CD, DTS and DVD-Video that were very much oriented toward replicating the capacities of analog formats; stereo playback and interlaced video being two very good examples of this.

And hey, I see Rhino offers FLAC downloads in their webpage. Expanding this to cover Quad releases in lossless 4.0 96/24 would be very nice. Bob, if you don't know it already I can assure you that such sales would address both Blu-ray, DVD-A and HTPC audiences. Knowledge and affordable tools for hires format conversions are very widespread nowadays. Originally a spin-off from certain "obscure activities", it could actually benefit a company betting on quality and exclusiveness. Believe me, format wars and DRM has been a PITA for audiophiles during the last decade. I think leaving this behind would be a logical step for Rhino. The DTS release plans and the already existing stereo FLAC download is for me a proofs of heading the right way. If your executives choose to expand the Digital product line to hires surround, I think you may count on an extremely broad support in this as well as other Internet communities.

One last point I'm afraid I have to make regarding Rhino's pricing policy. I can't help comparing with the King Crimson 40th anniversary edtions, these we are getting in CD, DTS 24/96 and DVD-A all together for less than half the price of CTA. Having a B.A. degree, I do sense some backwardly thinking regarding price elasticities, overhead costs and distribution channels over at Rhino. It's a pity IMO, because in the end it goes against the interests of both the signed artists and you people making an art of putting together the package. Record companies are whining over Internet but the naked truth, again IMO, is that they apply last-century marketing practices and are missing many opportunites to reach extraordinary volumes for niche releases. Anyway, I'm digressing... Just to conclude, as an example of what I mean: In hires at 20$ delivered I would buy each and every album listed in this thread, and more if there were. At the current 40$ and DTS I'll get a few albums, definitely less than 10, so my total spending would be significantly lower.

So then, off to give you some publicity at some Spanish sites...

Cheers
AL

 

[timbre4]

ArnoldLayne,

Please remember that Rhino Handmade releases are SMALLER releases sold directly by Rhino and NOT available in stores as the King Crimson releases are, so it's not a fair comparison.

Timbre4

 

[timbre4]

Bob,

Is there any idea when Rhino will have enough sales data to make the decision what the next move is on the DTS DVD front?

Thanks, Tim