QQ Survey Time!

[Kal Rubinson]

Ripping an SACD requires a compatible device (Blu-ray player/PS3), network connection, computer, USB thumb drive, and software (which at one point required either command line knowledge or Java be installed on the computer). That's a lot of complexity.

1. Nope, you can use a fair number of consumer universal disc players including Oppo, Sony, etc.
2. Don't most (all?) of us have LANs, computers and thumb drives anyway.
3. I can say that I have no knowledge of Java. I just use a thumb drive with control files I downloaded.

By contrast, with a Blu-ray Disc, everything is handled on a computer. All you need is an optical drive that will read Blu-ray, a computer, and software. I'd say the easiest software to use is the MakeMKV/DVD Audio Extractor combo. Use MakeMKV to backup the disc (defeating the copy protection), then use DVD Audio Extractor to rip the desired audio from the backup to your format of choice. Much simpler than an SACD.

As just noted in another reply, been there, done that and regularly. I challenge you to do that in less time and with fewer keystrokes than it takes me to rip an SACD.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

I don't know, that's what Foobar2000 reads the dsf files as, is it converting to PCM while it's playing the files?

Dunno. I've little experience with Foobar.

 

[fizzywiggs41]

You are the first one to state a (2nd) preference for DTS-CD's. When they first came out I thought (hoped) that they would be the rebirth of surround for music. Refreshing since the quad CD's that we were promised with the birth of the CD player never materialized. I felt that they provided great sound as well but when the non-lossy formats came out DTS didn't sound as good by comparison. I think that the main problem with DTS CD's is that some people would be bound to try to play it in a regular CD player and be blasted by the noise!

Yes your right Ken, and I was just thinking about that very thing.

So I'd like to amend my DTS CD REQUEST ....to 2 DTS CDS with 2 matrix encoded CDS


The CDS can be QS(INVOLVE) or Dolby MP , or if possible SQ encoded.

 

[par4ken]

Dunno. I've little experience with Foobar.

The rate shown is the rate that Foobar converts to for playing (and converting) .dsf files. You can change it under settings. Configure/SACD, mine is currently set for 176400, overkill I know!

 

[Mr. Afternoon]

The rate shown is the rate that Foobar converts to for playing (and converting) .dsf files. You can change it under settings. Configure/SACD, mine is currently set for 176400, overkill I know!

Foobar can actually output DSD, provided you have a DAC hooked up.

On a side tangent Blu-ray also allows you to tap into the clueless large audience of gamers with their new Xbox and Playstation consoles. AFAIK one of the two stopped supporting regular CDs as well, leaving Blu-ray as the only acceptable media format.

On side side tangent: Microsoft has never broken even with the XBOX brand till date. They're literally just throwing money at it.

On a side side side tangent, do y'all prefer to have your Blu-ray Audio discs autoplay when you insert them (akin to a CD) or have a menu first?

O̶n̶ ̶a̶ ̶s̶i̶d̶e̶ ̶s̶i̶d̶e̶ ̶s̶i̶d̶e̶ ̶s̶i̶d̶e̶ ̶t̶a̶n̶g̶e̶n̶t̶,̶ ̶w̶h̶a̶t̶'̶s̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶d̶e̶a̶l̶ ̶w̶i̶t̶h̶ ̶M̶Q̶A̶?̶

 

[fcormier]

I too find it simpler to rip Blu-ray discs than to rip SACDs.

Here's my workflow to rip Blu-rays:
- Extract the files from the disc using MakeMKV
- Convert to FLAC with AudioMuxer

The workflow for ripping SACD is more complex:
- Find the IP of the Blu-ray player
- Setup the software on the computer
- Go in the living room to start the Blu-ray player with the USB drive and the disc
- Run back to the computer to start the ripping process
- Convert the ISO in Foobar2000

Foobar2000 requires more setting up to convert SACD ISOs to FLAC that AudioMuxer which converts Blu-ray files to FLAC out of the box.

 

[madscot]

Foobar can actually output DSD, provided you have a DAC hooked up.

On a side tangent Blu-ray also allows you to tap into the clueless large audience of gamers with their new Xbox and Playstation consoles. AFAIK one of the two stopped supporting regular CDs as well, leaving Blu-ray as the only acceptable media format.

On side side tangent: Microsoft has never broken even with the XBOX brand till date. They're literally just throwing money at it.

On a side side side tangent, do y'all prefer to have your Blu-ray Audio discs autoplay when you insert them (akin to a CD) or have a menu first?

O̶n̶ ̶a̶ ̶s̶i̶d̶e̶ ̶s̶i̶d̶e̶ ̶s̶i̶d̶e̶ ̶s̶i̶d̶e̶ ̶t̶a̶n̶g̶e̶n̶t̶,̶ ̶w̶h̶a̶t̶'̶s̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶d̶e̶a̶l̶ ̶w̶i̶t̶h̶ ̶M̶Q̶A̶?̶

if it autoplays it generally means no extras on the disc so i’d prefer a menu with lots of extras to choose from

 

[MidiMagic]

A broken analog clock is right twice a day.

Heck, just take two copies of the same file and lower the volume of one of them by 0.1db. That null test result has audio at -20db and is clearly audible music through laptop speakers! Most people would fail an A/B listening test to identify one of the files sounding different with up to a 0.5db volume difference between them! But you clearly hear the difference and see it on the meter with only 0.1db change between identical files.

What did you do to get them to the same level again to apply the null test?

The two files will have totally different bit patterns when you lower the volume by 0.1 dB. This is the nature of digital audio.

Also remember that raising a signal by 0.1 dB is NOT the same ratio of change as lowering the signal by 0.1 dB.

If I have a signal at 80 dB and lower it by 0.1 dB, and then raise it by 0.1 dB, I do not get the original signal back. It is at a slightly different level.

 

[par4ken]

The workflow for ripping SACD is more complex:
- Find the IP of the Blu-ray player

That is not hard to do

- Setup the software on the computer

Download the files, nothing to install. Click on the executable jar file to run

Go in the living room to start the Blu-ray player with the USB drive and the disc

I use a separate machine (ONLY $50.00 on eBay) I keep it beside the computer.

Run back to the computer to start the ripping process

Easy the machine is right beside me

- Convert the ISO in Foobar2000

I just save as .dsf, Foobar will play them on the fly you don't have to convert.

Foobar2000 requires more setting up to convert SACD ISOs to FLAC that AudioMuxer which converts Blu-ray files to FLAC out of the box.

Once set up you don't have to do it again

 

[Bill B]

..... On a side side side tangent, do y'all prefer to have your Blu-ray Audio discs autoplay when you insert them (akin to a CD) or have a menu first?

O̶n̶ ̶a̶ ̶s̶i̶d̶e̶ ̶s̶i̶d̶e̶ ̶s̶i̶d̶e̶ ̶s̶i̶d̶e̶ ̶t̶a̶n̶g̶e̶n̶t̶,̶ ̶w̶h̶a̶t̶'̶s̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶d̶e̶a̶l̶ ̶w̶i̶t̶h̶ ̶M̶Q̶A̶?̶

If the blu-ray has multiple options (stereo, 5.1, Atmos) then you almost have to have a menu. Otherwise, it has to default to one and then you have to go to the menu anyway to choose the one you want. I find that more annoying, especially since most default to stereo.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

Here's my workflow to rip Blu-rays:
- Extract the files from the disc using MakeMKV
- Convert to FLAC with AudioMuxer

OK.
Loading and using MakeMKV is easy but takes a relatively long time.
Converting to FLAC requires loading AudioMuxer and, afaik, selecting the tracks needed, output format and destination.

The workflow for ripping SACD is more complex:
- Find the IP of the Blu-ray player
- Setup the software on the computer
- Go in the living room to start the Blu-ray player with the USB drive and the disc
- Run back to the computer to start the ripping process
- Convert the ISO in Foobar2000

It may seem complex but not once it is set up properly. Here is all I do:
1. Load the disc into the BDP with the USB drive attached.
2. Run sacd-extract GUI. It remembers the IP of the player, the output formats desired (includes any combination of ISO, DSD, DFF, stereo, mch) and the destination. Just hit GO.

 

[jimfisheye]

What did you do to get them to the same level again to apply the null test?

I drag/dropped an audio file onto a track in Reaper. I then duplicated that track to create the second one. Laziest workflow possible as always.

The two files will have totally different bit patterns when you lower the volume by 0.1 dB. This is the nature of digital audio.

Sure.
Not "totally different" though. Just attenuated. Still a level of nulling with a net effect of reducing the volume of the original by about 20db.

Also remember that raising a signal by 0.1 dB is NOT the same ratio of change as lowering the signal by 0.1 dB.

Sure.

If I have a signal at 80 dB and lower it by 0.1 dB, and then raise it by 0.1 dB, I do not get the original signal back. It is at a slightly different level.

To illustrate this. An audio file with the gain lowered -2.08 and then boosted back up 2.08 nulled against the original at unity gives me -75db after nulling. You get two data points from this: 1. The null down to -75db tells you that these had to be identical not too far upstream. You can't get even close to this level of null any other way. 2. The DSD to PCM transcode anyone might be concerned about does less alteration to the audio that turning the volume down 2db and then back up 2db!

Yeah, cool way to illustrate just how thoroughly lossless the DSD to PCM transcode really is!

 

[bluelightning]

Also remember that raising a signal by 0.1 dB is NOT the same ratio of change as lowering the signal by 0.1 dB.

If I have a signal at 80 dB and lower it by 0.1 dB, and then raise it by 0.1 dB, I do not get the original signal back. It is at a slightly different level.

Unfortunately, I have to disagree with this statement or don't understand what you mean here. Considering you are working in logarithmic scale, subtracting 0.1 dB or any dB value for that matter and then adding the same number back will mathematically get you back to the same value. Any differences in the output are due to the resolution (number of bits ) of the calculation itself and be very minor mathematically ( though not bit exact)

 

[bluelightning]

1. Nope, you can use a fair number of consumer universal disc players including Oppo, Sony, etc.

As just noted in another reply, been there, done that and regularly. I challenge you to do that in less time and with fewer keystrokes than it takes me to rip an SACD.

The fair number of consumer players you mention: All of which are no longer produced ( at least to my knowledge unless something new is out), either need hacked firmware, a back door approach, some script running on the drive OS etc. and of course are unsupported by the manufacturer
You are also forgetting the effort required in setting up/debugging in case something goes wrong. Should the IP address for the player change, you have to fix that. Also, many players require tinkering with something in the menu each time a SACD is ripped.

As for backing up a blu ray disk, it takes me only 3 mouse clicks back up the disk and walk away/focus on the next task.
1) Click 1: Open Makemkv
2) Click 2 : Backup disk
3) Click 3; Hit Ok.

I highly doubt anyone can achieve it any quicker.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

The fair number of consumer players you mention: All of which are no longer produced ( at least to my knowledge unless something new is out), either need hacked firmware, a back door approach, some script running on the drive OS etc. and of course are unsupported by the manufacturer
You are also forgetting the effort required in setting up/debugging in case something goes wrong. Should the IP address for the player change, you have to fix that. Also, many players require tinkering with something in the menu each time a SACD is ripped.

I do not think any of that is consequential.
1. If the players were current, they'd be more expensive but, used, they are common and cheap.
2. Unsupported? Of course, none of them nor the record companies condone ripping. So what?
3. I am sure hundreds, perhaps thousands, of people do this all the time. From my personal experience, many of them had your trepidations and, yet, they succeed.

As for backing up a blu ray disk, it takes me only 3 mouse clicks back up the disk and walk away/focus on the next task.
1) Click 1: Open Makemkv
2) Click 2 : Backup disk
3) Click 3; Hit Ok.

Granted, that is easy although it takes some time to transpire. In fact, it generally takes longer than the SACD ripping process I described. On top of that, the extraction of the audio tracks from the Mkv files complicates and extends the process even more.

Let me add that this whole dispute is silly. I expressed a preference for SACD because I find it easier to rip. If you have trouble doing that, it can't change my position.

 

[MidiMagic]

Unfortunately, I have to disagree with this statement or don't understand what you mean here. Considering you are working in logarithmic scale, subtracting 0.1 dB or any dB value for that matter and then adding the same number back will mathematically get you back to the same value. Any differences in the output are due to the resolution (number of bits ) of the calculation itself and be very minor mathematically ( though not bit exact)

How do you set the level change to exactly that value?

 

[Mackspower]

The fair number of consumer players you mention: All of which are no longer produced ( at least to my knowledge unless something new is out), either need hacked firmware, a back door approach, some script running on the drive OS etc. and of course are unsupported by the manufacturer
You are also forgetting the effort required in setting up/debugging in case something goes wrong. Should the IP address for the player change, you have to fix that. Also, many players require tinkering with something in the menu each time a SACD is ripped.

As for backing up a blu ray disk, it takes me only 3 mouse clicks back up the disk and walk away/focus on the next task.
1) Click 1: Open Makemkv
2) Click 2 : Backup disk
3) Click 3; Hit Ok.

I highly doubt anyone can achieve it any quicker.

You can also use passkey: right-click on passkey icon, select 'rip to iso', click OK

 

[Sal1950]

Just put all on the BD please.
I can then rip and create CD's or flac files for playing in the car.

 

[JediJoker]

On top of that, the extraction of the audio tracks from the Mkv files complicates and extends the process even more.

If you use the backup function in MakeMKV, the resulting files are exactly what appears on the disc, not MKVs.

 

[bluelightning]

I do not think any of that is consequential.
1. If the players were current, they'd be more expensive but, used, they are common and cheap.
2. Unsupported? Of course, none of them nor the record companies condone ripping. So what?
3. I am sure hundreds, perhaps thousands, of people do this all the time. From my personal experience, many of them had your trepidations and, yet, they succeed.

Granted, that is easy although it takes some time to transpire. In fact, it generally takes longer than the SACD ripping process I described. On top of that, the extraction of the audio tracks from the Mkv files complicates and extends the process even more.

Let me add that this whole dispute is silly. I expressed a preference for SACD because I find it easier to rip. If you have trouble doing that, it can't change my position.

Hello Kal,
I didn't ask you to change your position anywhere in my response. If you like SACD/DSD despite it technically being a poor format, that is entirely your prerogative. I was merely pointing to the simplicity of ripping Blurays compared to SACDs with cheaply and readily available BD-ROM drives that hundreds of millions already have in their households with fully supported software (not by the record companies, but who gives a crap about that?). Your indication of "hundreds, perhaps thousands" pales in comparison to that and consists mostly of enthusiasts who are willing to go the extra mile and get the process working. It is not hard but can be a pain to get working and has far more variables that can go wrong.

The bottom line: You enjoy your music the way you like it. As for me, I will pick Bluray over other formats whenever there is a choice, though it will not preclude me from getting the SACD/DSD when there is no other choice.