Quadios - demixing & remixing

[kfbkfb]

There have been a few comments about the way some of the 1970s quad mixes (now appearing on Quadios) are mixed (vocals/instruments mixed a little too low in volume, for example).

Considering the very high audio quality of Quadios, I was wondering if anyone has demixed the vocals/instruments and then remixed the song(s)?


Kirk Bayne

 

[par4ken]

I think that the Quadio mixes are fine as is!

 

[jimfisheye]

The current level of "de-mixing" ability is still crude and lo-fi when put under the audiophile magnifying glass. However, used conservatively, you could certainly boost or lower a mix element and carefully keep everything just short of any audible artifact.

You know... Just like autotune was a strategically employed spot fix in country music that was hard to spot until Cher came along and now we have hiphop stars and Taylor Swift recordings.

So, could be!
That's a strong accusation that begs evidence though! What did you compare to an original release? What was different?

I've heard all kinds of artifacts and alterations that can happen from imperfect decodes of encoded vinyl and tape quality issues with Q8. I'd be inclined to attribute a change in the sound to be the other way around - the original was the altered one! Stuff like a polarity reversed channel in some of the reissues sure stand out and there's no mistake that the error is with the reissue in those examples. If I have any point with this bit it's that it's hard to make conclusions sometimes. So many variables and subjective elements.

Anyway... What album? What did you hear different than on an original release? What format is that original release and what condition is it in?

The Quadio releases I've heard so far stand out as being very well mastered. I'm not sitting in the studio where I can A/B with a master of course! Just that they have no telltales of common imperfections or errors. If someone did some de-mix separation and made an alteration, they did damn good transparent job of it!

 

[steelydave]

Issues with vocals seeming veiled, or instruments being buried are 150% EQ-related and not mix-related, especially with the WEA titles where the guys who did the stereo mixes almost always did the quad mixes. As such, these issues can be solved with the judicious application of EQ - "de-mixing" or remixing is absolute overkill for the situation, like tearing down your house and rebuilding it because you don't like the colour of the indoor paint.

 

[kfbkfb]

I have no opinion on music mixes, some person or persons closely associated with and/or part of the musical act signed off on the mix, that's the end of the issue for me.

A few posters in QQ have commented on characteristics of the 1970s quad mixes of certain songs/albums (I don't recall specific posts), I was just wondering if anyone went so far as to do a demix/remix to "fix" what they don't like about the mixes.


Kirk Bayne

 

[jimfisheye]

Issues with vocals seeming veiled, or instruments being buried are 150% EQ-related...

That's a good point! I've heard mid scooped stuff before that absolutely alters the vocal balance.

 

[par4ken]

I suspect that those complaining about low vocals are used to the stereo mix where the vocal itself has less "competition" from other sound elements. Stereo fold down to mono for AM radio play would have made the vocals 6dB hotter as well, if you are remembering it that way. I personally have never noticed excessively low vocals on any quad mix.

In contrast some modern 5.1 mixes like "Mr. Big" have excessively loud vocals. Sounds much better with the vocal level reduced!

 

[ar surround]

There have been a few comments about the way some of the 1970s quad mixes (now appearing on Quadios) are mixed (vocals/instruments mixed a little too low in volume, for example).

Considering the very high audio quality of Quadios, I was wondering if anyone has demixed the vocals/instruments and then remixed the song(s)?


Kirk Bayne

I have found it extremely difficult to demix anything more complicated than a stereo recording. Quads and 5.1 recordings have a certain amount of front to back bleed, ambience, reverb, etc that can confuse even the top demixing programs of today, such as DeMix Pro and LALAL.AI. However, what I have done on one or two occasions is separate the center of the front channels of a quad using Audacity and make a center channel. This allows for a significant boost of the front center vocals.

I also played around with a couple of Chicago songs on Transit Authority. I felt that the image of the horns in the left rear of Introduction and Questions 67 and 68 were a bit too focused. So I created a center channel that duplicated the left rear, thereby giving the horns a slightly bigger sense of space. I later tried using demixing technology on the same two songs but didn't like the results compared to my earlier, simpler solution.

 

[ar surround]

The current level of "de-mixing" ability is still crude and lo-fi when put under the audiophile magnifying glass. However, used conservatively, you could certainly boost or lower a mix element and carefully keep everything just short of any audible artifact.

I wouldn't call the demix programs 'lo-fi', but they indeed are still very crude at anything beyond a simple four-stem extraction (bass, drums, vocals, other) especially with recordings created before circa1980s. I've used several techniques and tricks to achieve stereo to 5.1 remixes where artifacts are masked at my specific MLP. But the warts might raise their ugly heads when someone listens to the remixes at a different MLP on a different system.

The Quadio releases I've heard so far stand out as being very well mastered. I'm not sitting in the studio where I can A/B with a master of course! Just that they have no telltales of common imperfections or errors.

Yes, I have no complaints about any of the Quadios or the DV quads.

If someone did some de-mix separation and made an alteration, they did damn good transparent job of it!

That would be an interesting discovery if turns out to be some quads out there like that. I don't know of any.

 

[ar surround]

Issues with vocals seeming veiled, or instruments being buried are 150% EQ-related and not mix-related, especially with the WEA titles where the guys who did the stereo mixes almost always did the quad mixes. As such, these issues can be solved with the judicious application of EQ - "de-mixing" or remixing is absolute overkill for the situation, like tearing down your house and rebuilding it because you don't like the colour of the indoor paint.

Your post is a word to the wise, Dave. I took a shot at demixing / remixing the Quadio of Chicago's Does Anyone Really Know What Time It Is to bring up the vocals. As good as DeMix Pro is at demixing, I did not like the results at all and trashed the effort. The final product just sounded like, "something ain't right."

 

[jimfisheye]

Good old fashioned eq can do a lot!

Consider the multitrack source as pre separated. Feed the separation software mono and stereo elements. (It doesn't have to know what you're doing with it.) Create as much of a multitrack as possible and then work from that.