Reality Technologies - New surround technology
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quadsearcher
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Against better judgement I am compelled to step in this portion of the thread, as it appears my interest in hearing certain recordings done in one of the more obscure formats decoded has sparked a little flame.
While enjoyment of music and science are two different things, and happy accidents can be just as enjoyable as an approach intentionally directed towards the specific format, life is short, and given the chance to encourage one or the other, I would choose the more direct approach. I am speaking only of these early, obsolete, not to be used again formats. These recordings are worthy of archiving in a decoded form.
What I'm speaking of has (in my humble opinion) nothing at all to do with the product being discussed in this thread. I still feel like I'm new to forums after participating in various ones for about 10 years. My comments were off-topic to this discussion, sincere apologies to all on-topic posters here. I hope the train of thought has not been derailed too much, having been involved in development of a mic pre for a short time, new products are fascinating to me.
While enjoyment of music and science are two different things, and happy accidents can be just as enjoyable as an approach intentionally directed towards the specific format, life is short, and given the chance to encourage one or the other, I would choose the more direct approach. I am speaking only of these early, obsolete, not to be used again formats. These recordings are worthy of archiving in a decoded form.
What I'm speaking of has (in my humble opinion) nothing at all to do with the product being discussed in this thread. I still feel like I'm new to forums after participating in various ones for about 10 years. My comments were off-topic to this discussion, sincere apologies to all on-topic posters here. I hope the train of thought has not been derailed too much, having been involved in development of a mic pre for a short time, new products are fascinating to me.
me again
just for myself i played
some more Lps
flame dy
vanguard dy demo
and 6 EV4 lps
with the reality tec unit
it did a near perfect job of decoding
if it is not correct then it is close enough
there were rear channel solos very solid
the beach boys surfs up is not a very good
demo as it seams to blend front and rear channels
but not a bad
i only write what i see and am not selling anything
just for myself i played
some more Lps
flame dy
vanguard dy demo
and 6 EV4 lps
with the reality tec unit
it did a near perfect job of decoding
if it is not correct then it is close enough
there were rear channel solos very solid
the beach boys surfs up is not a very good
demo as it seams to blend front and rear channels
but not a bad
i only write what i see and am not selling anything
just a note
EV / Stereo-4
EV - Developed by Electro Voice, also known as Stereo-4, was developed by Leonard Feldman and Jon Fixler. Despite heavy promotion by RadioShack stores in the USA, very few items were encoded in this format. This was the first commercial matrix system in the market (Source: http://midimagic.sgc-hosting.com/surround.htm) In America it was the first commercial quadraphonic system (for example on Ovation label. Example: Hollins and Starr: Sidewalks Talking 1970).
EV was the first system to use different sets of coefficients for encoding and decoding. Most other systems have decode coefficients that mirror the encode coefficients. Therefore the EV Stereo-4 was something in between a 2-2-4 simulated system and a 4-2-4 matrix system. The original EV system was compatible with the QS system.
EV / Stereo-4
EV - Developed by Electro Voice, also known as Stereo-4, was developed by Leonard Feldman and Jon Fixler. Despite heavy promotion by RadioShack stores in the USA, very few items were encoded in this format. This was the first commercial matrix system in the market (Source: http://midimagic.sgc-hosting.com/surround.htm) In America it was the first commercial quadraphonic system (for example on Ovation label. Example: Hollins and Starr: Sidewalks Talking 1970).
EV was the first system to use different sets of coefficients for encoding and decoding. Most other systems have decode coefficients that mirror the encode coefficients. Therefore the EV Stereo-4 was something in between a 2-2-4 simulated system and a 4-2-4 matrix system. The original EV system was compatible with the QS system.
inkubuzz
400 Club - QQ All-Star
ok, im not what chucky calls "the specialist quad/ audiophile guru market" m just a mass market multichannel fanboy 
I do not know any of the techncial stuff written here, but i trying to learn and have read everything. So to puto everything into a newbies perspective (total perspective if you want!), What The surround masgter does is something like the Dolby Pro Logic II, but better? or does it something else...
pls no techie stuff. just as you would explain ona a "Surround for Dummies" book
thanks again and sorry for being such a pain in the ass...
I do not know any of the techncial stuff written here, but i trying to learn and have read everything. So to puto everything into a newbies perspective (total perspective if you want!), What The surround masgter does is something like the Dolby Pro Logic II, but better? or does it something else...
pls no techie stuff. just as you would explain ona a "Surround for Dummies" book
thanks again and sorry for being such a pain in the ass...
inkubuzz
400 Club - QQ All-Star
whoops... posted twice...please admin delete this post...
Last edited:
If you go back into this tread
You will see that is a Modern QSD1 decoder
that can make stereo into a great surround effect
It is better than Dolby 11 as it can move images from side to side in the
rear channels
But if the stereo recording is a flat sound or a solo artist
it has less effect
I have played with it now for about 3 months
and about 85 pc of the time it has been great
Stereo /Digital radio old Lps
You will see that is a Modern QSD1 decoder
that can make stereo into a great surround effect
It is better than Dolby 11 as it can move images from side to side in the
rear channels
But if the stereo recording is a flat sound or a solo artist
it has less effect
I have played with it now for about 3 months
and about 85 pc of the time it has been great
Stereo /Digital radio old Lps
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Hi
Just a note, I visited the plastics factory today (yes Sunday) and I have quality approved the cases! We will have fully packages surround master units in 1 week time finally!!!!!
Also, yesterday I went to a live performance in a concert venue of my daughters Chicago blues band "King Catfish" (10 years of piano training and yet she plays bass guitar) and was distracted by the speaker system. I was sitting mid way between center and the right hand side of the room - all the sound was coming from the right hand speaker - yet the performers were located around the center. Nothing was wrong with the left hand speaker its is just that I have gotten used to our "Total Perspective" System that corrects for the listener position and always presents the sonic image to where the performers actually are.
I will publish pictures shortly of our soon to be released Total Perspective domestic package.
Regards
Charlie
Just a note, I visited the plastics factory today (yes Sunday) and I have quality approved the cases! We will have fully packages surround master units in 1 week time finally!!!!!
Also, yesterday I went to a live performance in a concert venue of my daughters Chicago blues band "King Catfish" (10 years of piano training and yet she plays bass guitar) and was distracted by the speaker system. I was sitting mid way between center and the right hand side of the room - all the sound was coming from the right hand speaker - yet the performers were located around the center. Nothing was wrong with the left hand speaker its is just that I have gotten used to our "Total Perspective" System that corrects for the listener position and always presents the sonic image to where the performers actually are.
I will publish pictures shortly of our soon to be released Total Perspective domestic package.
Regards
Charlie
inkubuzz
400 Club - QQ All-Star
yeah!! cant wait to buy this stuff!!
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Hi all
Sorry for the radio silence. Just a quick update - forget what I said earlier about the discount, our web guy is implementing a far more robust web setup that will integrate the discount code into the purchase process and future-proof us for future deals. Also makes it much easier to keep track of orders. So stay tuned, hopefully that will be live tomorrow, if not first thing next week, and I'll chime back in here with a discount code for you all.
Cheers
David
P.S. I'm putting the first batch through the setup process even as I type this, and Charlie is testing them. It's getting kind of exciting
Sorry for the radio silence. Just a quick update - forget what I said earlier about the discount, our web guy is implementing a far more robust web setup that will integrate the discount code into the purchase process and future-proof us for future deals. Also makes it much easier to keep track of orders. So stay tuned, hopefully that will be live tomorrow, if not first thing next week, and I'll chime back in here with a discount code for you all.
Cheers
David
P.S. I'm putting the first batch through the setup process even as I type this, and Charlie is testing them. It's getting kind of exciting
Have you read this thread? It's not an all-things-to-all-people universal decoder, it's specifically for QS, possibly better than a QSD-1, but at least what we who have no QSD-1 decoders need.
My question is:
Does this thing really decode QS by the book?
I would like to hear clear answers from Charlie and David
Also I would like clear answers from those opposed.
Part 2 of question (which is actually more important to me): Will the model based on SQ be able to decode SQ by the book? And I mean with Tate like performance or better. Also, will this model be able to still decode QS with accuracy?
When I say accuracy and by the book, I mean with the result of what the engineer of the quad albums originally intended you to hear.
I know that the main purpose of this device seems to be fake quad/5.1. Which is all good.
But to really get me to open up my wallet, these devices will need to decode QS and/or SQ with accuracy.
I'm not trying to be hard on the people who made this. I commend anyone for making new quad gear.
I'm not trying to be hard on the naysayers. Naysayers drive things to be better.
I just want clear answers on the ability to decode strait quad LP's.
Thank you!
Does this thing really decode QS by the book?
I would like to hear clear answers from Charlie and David
Also I would like clear answers from those opposed.
Part 2 of question (which is actually more important to me): Will the model based on SQ be able to decode SQ by the book? And I mean with Tate like performance or better. Also, will this model be able to still decode QS with accuracy?
When I say accuracy and by the book, I mean with the result of what the engineer of the quad albums originally intended you to hear.
I know that the main purpose of this device seems to be fake quad/5.1. Which is all good.
But to really get me to open up my wallet, these devices will need to decode QS and/or SQ with accuracy.
I'm not trying to be hard on the people who made this. I commend anyone for making new quad gear.
I'm not trying to be hard on the naysayers. Naysayers drive things to be better.
I just want clear answers on the ability to decode strait quad LP's.
Thank you!
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Hi Q8
At the early parts of this thread I mentioned that the INVOLVE decoder had a core matrix equation set identical to the Sansui QS equations as in our opinion it was a true circular set of equations that we could not improve upon (if it ain't broke - don't fix it). In addition in our opinion the QS equations do the best overall decode of conventional off the shelf stereo material. We have not changed the decode equations in any way.
We do differ in several aspects of the Sansui decoders "logic" circuitry. Simply put the "logic" is used to enhance the poor separation that results from the basic matrix. It is the challenge of the designer to faithfully expand on this basic separation. We claim the enhancements we have made to the "logic" area has significantly improved the separation of the resultant decode and we also have provided test results (see attached - sorry to repeat).
It is one thing to produce big separation numbers but it is much harder to hide the after effects such as pumping, clicks, whistles, image blur or smear, wander etc. We claim the work we have done has significantly improved all these issues to the point of the listener will not detect any difference when compared to discrete (I have also published to QQ internal listener panel tests on this).
Yet another benefit of our DSP based INVOLVE decoder is that it has no internal adjustments or calibrations to drift over the years. In short given care the unit should perform perfectly for many years.
IN SHORT - YES!
In regards to our promised QQ special SQ/ QS decoder for next year - yes all the above comments apply and so itb will be similarly faithful. And yes we will offer return to factory software update/ revision free of charge.
The main purpose of the INVOLVE decoder is not just "fake quad/ 5.1" (I really hate 5.1) but it is related to our view that when used with our INVOLVE encoder, the resultant "stereo" output is indistinguishable from the conventional stereo downmix yet the INVOLVE decoded surround is indistinguishable from Discrete. Our real number 1 aim is to establish a new standard "INVOLVE STEREO" recording format as there are no down sides to the listener. Yes I know and understand that the recording industry/ cable TV/ radio will be reluctant to change but there are no losers only winners. Also for those who think its as simple as knocking on Warner bros or EMI's door - you will find that there are no doors!
I hope this helps to clear up any lack of clarity.
Regards
Charlie
At the early parts of this thread I mentioned that the INVOLVE decoder had a core matrix equation set identical to the Sansui QS equations as in our opinion it was a true circular set of equations that we could not improve upon (if it ain't broke - don't fix it). In addition in our opinion the QS equations do the best overall decode of conventional off the shelf stereo material. We have not changed the decode equations in any way.
We do differ in several aspects of the Sansui decoders "logic" circuitry. Simply put the "logic" is used to enhance the poor separation that results from the basic matrix. It is the challenge of the designer to faithfully expand on this basic separation. We claim the enhancements we have made to the "logic" area has significantly improved the separation of the resultant decode and we also have provided test results (see attached - sorry to repeat).
It is one thing to produce big separation numbers but it is much harder to hide the after effects such as pumping, clicks, whistles, image blur or smear, wander etc. We claim the work we have done has significantly improved all these issues to the point of the listener will not detect any difference when compared to discrete (I have also published to QQ internal listener panel tests on this).
Yet another benefit of our DSP based INVOLVE decoder is that it has no internal adjustments or calibrations to drift over the years. In short given care the unit should perform perfectly for many years.
IN SHORT - YES!
In regards to our promised QQ special SQ/ QS decoder for next year - yes all the above comments apply and so itb will be similarly faithful. And yes we will offer return to factory software update/ revision free of charge.
The main purpose of the INVOLVE decoder is not just "fake quad/ 5.1" (I really hate 5.1) but it is related to our view that when used with our INVOLVE encoder, the resultant "stereo" output is indistinguishable from the conventional stereo downmix yet the INVOLVE decoded surround is indistinguishable from Discrete. Our real number 1 aim is to establish a new standard "INVOLVE STEREO" recording format as there are no down sides to the listener. Yes I know and understand that the recording industry/ cable TV/ radio will be reluctant to change but there are no losers only winners. Also for those who think its as simple as knocking on Warner bros or EMI's door - you will find that there are no doors!
I hope this helps to clear up any lack of clarity.
Regards
Charlie
- Joined
- May 11, 2012
- Messages
- 292
Allo - my $0.02
"Does this thing really decode QS by the book?"
Yes, only it's the entire book, that wasn't able to be practically applied back then due to the limitations of technology.
Plus we've written a few extra chapters in that book. Don't worry, it still has a happy ending.
"Part 2 of question (which is actually more important to me): Will the model based on SQ be able to decode SQ by the book? And I mean with Tate like performance or better. Also, will this model be able to still decode QS with accuracy?"
In short, yes. The SQ part will be SQ by the book, and that model will not have the TSS mode, it will simply replace the TSS mode. So it will be our QS based decode, and the SQ decode.
As I think Charlie said, that comes next year, however we will be able to do conversion on the TSS units, for only the cost of shipping.
"Does this thing really decode QS by the book?"
Yes, only it's the entire book, that wasn't able to be practically applied back then due to the limitations of technology.
Plus we've written a few extra chapters in that book. Don't worry, it still has a happy ending.
"Part 2 of question (which is actually more important to me): Will the model based on SQ be able to decode SQ by the book? And I mean with Tate like performance or better. Also, will this model be able to still decode QS with accuracy?"
In short, yes. The SQ part will be SQ by the book, and that model will not have the TSS mode, it will simply replace the TSS mode. So it will be our QS based decode, and the SQ decode.
As I think Charlie said, that comes next year, however we will be able to do conversion on the TSS units, for only the cost of shipping.
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- May 11, 2012
- Messages
- 292
For what it's worth, we'll do comparisons with Tate, using a few local guinea-pigs...er, I mean volunteers, who have the necessary equipment. I.E. a Tate decoder, four speakers and two ears.
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Hi All
We have finally got there!!!
We will be shipping our first 100 Surround Master decoders next Tuesday/ Wednesday, a large number have already been committed to local customers so I suggest being quick is a concept. The next batch of 400 will be available at the end of January 2013 (after the end of the world 21 December 2012).
Please note the first 100 units have been fully programmed and tested by Dave and myself (as we wanted to double check the process). I have attached some photo's of our "pretty box" and our surface mount production facility.
Dave will provide QQ discount voucher numbers within 24 hours and details on how to apply. Please note my conditions for this discount are:
The RRP will be US$395 and as yet there is no exclusive distribution deals and we intend certainly initially to offer direct sales.
We will also offer TO EXISTING Quadraphonicquad forum members an introductory price for 3 months after release of USD$349 in recognition of the excellent comments and suggestions we have received- BUT there is one catch WITH EACH SALE WE WILL REQUIRE A MINI REVIEW OF THE PERFORMANCE (WARTS AND ALL).
In addition ALL pack and post is at a FLAT RATE of USD$18
Regards
Chucky
We have finally got there!!!
We will be shipping our first 100 Surround Master decoders next Tuesday/ Wednesday, a large number have already been committed to local customers so I suggest being quick is a concept. The next batch of 400 will be available at the end of January 2013 (after the end of the world 21 December 2012).
Please note the first 100 units have been fully programmed and tested by Dave and myself (as we wanted to double check the process). I have attached some photo's of our "pretty box" and our surface mount production facility.
Dave will provide QQ discount voucher numbers within 24 hours and details on how to apply. Please note my conditions for this discount are:
The RRP will be US$395 and as yet there is no exclusive distribution deals and we intend certainly initially to offer direct sales.
We will also offer TO EXISTING Quadraphonicquad forum members an introductory price for 3 months after release of USD$349 in recognition of the excellent comments and suggestions we have received- BUT there is one catch WITH EACH SALE WE WILL REQUIRE A MINI REVIEW OF THE PERFORMANCE (WARTS AND ALL).
In addition ALL pack and post is at a FLAT RATE of USD$18
Regards
Chucky
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oxforddickie
1K Club - QQ Shooting Star
Do me a favour, also test it against my software decoding process, that is "SQ*Final/I." as it improves on most of the areas of SQ decoding.
Obviously, if you are willing to do so, you will require the material you will be using for testing to be decoded. Contact me directly if you need this doing.
OD
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Hi Oxforddickie
Should be interesting for both of us but lets make it happen early next year when we have done the SQ core matrix equation module. I am sure you have used many great concepts in your software. Lets keep in touch!
Regards
Charlie
Should be interesting for both of us but lets make it happen early next year when we have done the SQ core matrix equation module. I am sure you have used many great concepts in your software. Lets keep in touch!
Regards
Charlie
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