Retail Audio Disapointment

[Sonik Wiz]

My son in law has quite a nice home theater set up centered around Marantz/Oppo/Polk/Sony projector components. Recently he wanted to upgrade his front speakers & move his current fronts to the rears. So off we went to check out and audition some.

But first let me hop in the way back machine about 40 years. Back then there were several top quality audio shops to go to. They all had one thing in common: they always demoed whatever you we’re interested in with pristine top quality LP/cart/TT combo. Obviously something from a Sheffield Direct to Disc is going to show off speakers, whatever, better than say Alice Cooper would. Keep in mind I was a big AC fan back then. Just saying. BS&T Spinning Wheel also seemed to be a fave demo. Of course along with Manheim Steamroller.

Presently there is only one good AV store around: Independence Audio in Independence Missouri. Other than that it’s BB or NFM. My son in law got most of his stuff from the latter so that’s where we went off to.

Now remember he only wanted to audition single stereo pair of speakers with music not boom-o-phonic movies. The ONLY audio source for music NFM had was Spotify controlled by an LCD touch panel. Not even FM radio since the receiver’s were not hooked up to antennas. And then it was set default to a 5.1 configuration every time it was switched to another pair of speakers. That meant go from A>B & get hit with 5.1 then go into receiver menu adjust back to stereo than go through it again when you switch B>A. The Spotify choices seemed quite limited to Taylor Swift/ C&W/etc. No jazz or classical could be found.

I don’t expect a mainstream store to have a high end TT set up but they didn’t even have a single CD on hand to listen to. I have learned to bring some with me if I ever have to go there again. Bet even then it’s so hard to do good A/B testing it was just such a frustrating experience.
I’m not singling out NFM it just happens to be where I had this experience. I imagine this is norm elsewhere too. And I’m not against change I would just like it to be for the better. Then again it depends whose point of view is better: the knowledgeable shopper or the big volume retailer.

Thanks for letting me vent.

 

[J. PUPSTER]

My son in law has quite a nice home theater set up centered around Marantz/Oppo/Polk/Sony projector components. Recently he wanted to upgrade his front speakers & move his current fronts to the rears. So off we went to check out and audition some.

But first let me hop in the way back machine about 40 years. Back then there were several top quality audio shops to go to. They all had one thing in common: they always demoed whatever you we’re interested in with pristine top quality LP/cart/TT combo. Obviously something from a Sheffield Direct to Disc is going to show off speakers, whatever, better than say Alice Cooper would. Keep in mind I was a big AC fan back then. Just saying. BS&T Spinning Wheel also seemed to be a fave demo. Of course along with Manheim Steamroller.

Presently there is only one good AV store around: Independence Audio in Independence Missouri. Other than that it’s BB or NFM. My son in law got most of his stuff from the latter so that’s where we went off to.

Now remember he only wanted to audition single stereo pair of speakers with music not boom-o-phonic movies. The ONLY audio source for music NFM had was Spotify controlled by an LCD touch panel. Not even FM radio since the receiver’s were not hooked up to antennas. And then it was set default to a 5.1 configuration every time it was switched to another pair of speakers. That meant go from A>B & get hit with 5.1 then go into receiver menu adjust back to stereo than go through it again when you switch B>A. The Spotify choices seemed quite limited to Taylor Swift/ C&W/etc. No jazz or classical could be found.

I don’t expect a mainstream store to have a high end TT set up but they didn’t even have a single CD on hand to listen to. I have learned to bring some with me if I ever have to go there again. Bet even then it’s so hard to do good A/B testing it was just such a frustrating experience.
I’m not singling out NFM it just happens to be where I had this experience. I imagine this is norm elsewhere too. And I’m not against change I would just like it to be for the better. Then again it depends whose point of view is better: the knowledgeable shopper or the big volume retailer.

Thanks for letting me vent.

I'm with you on the frustration level, maddening. I had to go to a full service Best Buy so I could audition the various formats and speaker configurations.

One of my big pet peeves is trying out headphones. These places have maybe only 3 or 4 good pairs to listen to, and that's just the over the ear models. I actually prefer quality earbuds, but how do you get a chance to try those? There is actually one decent A/V store in my area called Paradyme, but they seem somewhat limited also (especially number of speaker brands) with some knowledge of surround sound, but very spotty help.

 

[4-earredwonder]

Sadly, GONE are the days when one was able to actually take equipment home and try it in one's own listening space to determine if it was indeed a good fit. I used to try interconnects, various components, speakers, etc. with the proviso that I could return them if I wasn't satisfied. But of course, everything came at a price...especially during the heydays of the format wars.

Being a bona fide audio AND video nut had major consequences......VHS, Beta, laserdisc ...... well the clear choice was laserdisc which had it's own peculiarities. Domestically pressed Discovision discs truly sucked.....grainy, they skipped and the rate of returns was nearly 90%. Then Pioneer decided to press the discs in Japan ... which came with higher prices ...... and then Pioneer decided to add Dolby Digital 5.1 [a BIG deal back then for discreteness] and I had to have my pricey Theta Laserdisc player retrofitted for that format at a HEFTY price.

And almost overnight, SONY/PHILIPS introduced the 5" DVD which actually bettered the giant laserdisc significantly....followed by the DVD~Audio/SACD format Wars.

My dealer carried both the high end SONY Stereo only SCD~1 player and the Meridian 800 Reference DVD~A/RBCD player which of course was multichannel. So I dove headlong into what I considered the Superior DVD~A format and of course what seemed like a flash.....both formats were considered duds and cessation of software almost immediately followed [not after SONY decided to implement multichannel in their SACD format].

Of course these high end salons also stressed the importance of interconnects and speaker cables and for those who still believe these 'components' have NO significance in better sounding audio have never experienced swapping cables in one's own system. Some of the differences were jaw dropping .... but came at a price, as well. They also carried various room treatments ..... room tunes, Shakti holograms, etc which I was also allowed to take home and 'experience' in my listening room. I ended up keeping them because they were dramatically effective.

I was also able to get rid of older equipment as 'trade ins" which wasn't always to MY benefit but this was before Audiogon and the internet were viable realities.

Like all the great Record Stores....the high end audio salons went the way of the dinosaur and now all we conceivably have is Best Buy and the like where unknowledgeable salespersons would sell you the proverbial Brooklyn Bridge if they could.

If one still subscribes to Stereophile/The Absolute Sound, hardware manufacturers continue to make high end components costing thousands of dollars but the only way one could try these components out is by contacting them via email or phone and 'arrange' for an audition and of course if you live thousands of miles away .... it could be a bit of a stretch if this would be in any way feasible.

Unfortunately, my 'honeymoon' with my high end audio salon was short~lived as they went bankrupt [as many did], screwing not only their suppliers but their 'loyal' customer base as well.

So basically, we're ON OUR OWN .......and as Sonik Wiz attests ...... it's NOT a pretty picture.

 

[DoctorO]

Lots of waves of change here, not just the marketing of the hardware, but also the marketing and distribution channels for music and movies changing so dramatically, which drives the hardware. There's not turning back! But, I will never miss paying 59.99 for a new release VHS tape, or worse, 99.99 for a grainy, cropped-picture laser disc!

 

[4-earredwonder]

Lots of waves of change here, not just the marketing of the hardware, but also the marketing and distribution channels for music and movies changing so dramatically, which drives the hardware. There's not turning back! But, I will never miss paying 59.99 for a new release VHS tape, or worse, 99.99 for a grainy, cropped-picture laser disc!

Right on, Doctor0.....I remember going to my old FYE store and the manager did relate stories of customers coming in day/date of release and actually paying $99 [+ sales tax] retail for a cropped VHS tape and leaving with maybe three or four...at that incredulous price.

I just purchased about 25 UHD 4K BD~Vs and paid between $7.99 and $11.99 for the privilege!

 

[jimfisheye]

Didn't have even a CD?! Heh, I'd be requesting a 24 bit digital file or nothing myself! (I'm not kidding.)

Either amateurs or scammers. Probably the former.

Today, the consumer electronics stores are more like the toy store. The good news is that "studio" products aimed at musicians offer a lot of bang for the buck. Home recording musicians being the target audience, you avoid the facsimile products found in Worst Purchase (soundbars and stuff with more invested in the flashing lights that the sound producing components). Also, musicians typically being poor, you get products with decent bang for the buck. Better and often less expensive.

It's a golden age for audio right now if you shop right. But there are also some of the biggest zero value scams going on that I've ever seen ready to take advantage of the unsuspecting consumer.

 

[key_wiz]

Sadly, GONE are the days when one was able to actually take equipment home and try it in one's own listening space to determine if it was indeed a good fit. I used to try interconnects, various components, speakers, etc. with the proviso that I could return them if I wasn't satisfied. But of course, everything came at a price...especially during the heydays of the format wars.

.

I don't know that those days are COMPLETELY gone. While you do have to pay for things upfront, it seems many retailers are willing to do a "trial period" with such stuff. I certainly know that Best Buy has offered that with any audio gear or TVs I've purchased from them. And, of course, most online retailers let you do the same.

 

[4-earredwonder]

I don't know that those days are COMPLETELY gone. While you do have to pay for things upfront, it seems many retailers are willing to do a "trial period" with such stuff. I certainly know that Best Buy has offered that with any audio gear or TVs I've purchased from them. And, of course, most online retailers let you do the same.

I've never purchased any audio components or TVs from Best Buy so don't have that experience .... but I do know that Music Direct does allow you a 60 day return policy ..... but when it comes to speakers, etc.....having them shipped out and then having to return them for whatever reason seems like a major hassle. I guess I was spoiled by my 'audio salon' but they certainly were NOT cheap but especially when it came to speakers ... they'd deliver them, set them up, rewire them and bring them back to the store if you weren't happy.

Keywhiz, I guess I'm just not one of those DIY guys!

 

[key_wiz]

I've never purchased any audio components or TVs from Best Buy so don't have that experience .... but I do know that Music Direct does allow you a 60 day return policy ..... but when it comes to speakers, etc.....having them shipped out and then having to return them for whatever reason seems like a major hassle. I guess I was spoiled by my 'audio salon' but they certainly were NOT cheap but especially when it came to speakers ... they'd deliver them, set them up, rewire them and bring them back to the store if you weren't happy.

Keywhiz, I guess I'm just not one of those DIY guys!

I think Best Buy gives you 15 days. They have people who will come out and set up the equipment for you. How GOOD any of them are at it or know their stuff? That's probably a different conversation to have. But they offer the service.

While sadly "audio salons" seem further and farther between these days, there is certainly a trend for greater customer service at almost all brick-and-mortar stores. They simply can't compete otherwise. I bought some workout equipment from my local mom-and-pop store and it all came with a free delivery and set up and 30 days to try it out and see it if I liked it. A new bicycle I bought from a mom-and-pop bike shop was the same thing.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

This is lamentable but it has also had the effect of aging the audiophile population because there is no way for the uninformed to be exposed to good sound systems unless they have had the (mis)fortune to get to know folks like us. I remember being welcome, not just tolerated, as a teenager when I ventured into the 1-2 local stores or any of the ones clustered around Chambers Street (downtown) or 45th Street (midtown) in Manhattan. A bit later, there was the clubby atmosphere at the Audio Breakthroughs in Manhasset near our family home.

The consequence of all this is that I, and many others, became enthusiasts and buyers in that order. How can that happen today?

 

[key_wiz]

Also, online returns are getting easier and easier as technology progresses. I know that returning stuff to Amazon is as simple as requesting the return and they send you an email authorizing it, putting it back in the box, taking it down to the nearest UPS store, and having the clerk scan the return code that is in the email on your phone. Or off the printed email if you prefer to do it that way.

I imagine most major online retailers work the same way these days.

 

[Sonik Wiz]

I'm with you on the frustration level, maddening. I had to go to a full service Best Buy so I could audition the various formats and speaker configurations.

One of my big pet peeves is trying out headphones. These places have maybe only 3 or 4 good pairs to listen to, and that's just the over the ear models. I actually prefer quality earbuds, but how do you get a chance to try those? There is actually one decent A/V store in my area called Paradyme, but they seem somewhat limited also (especially number of speaker brands) with some knowledge of surround sound, but very spotty help.

Yeah besides everything else it seems headphones or earbuds are pretty much overlooked unless you want want the cheapos of the latter. And a you said, how do you check them out? I bought some Sennheiser earbuds on line just going by specs & reviews a few years ago. They turned out pretty good.

I took a look at the Paradyme website for the Sacramento store. Seems very a modern version of the classic audio salon.

 

[JonUrban]

...........The consequence of all this is that I, and many others, became enthusiasts and buyers in that order. How can that happen today?

It can't. People today don't want big speakers with a receiver unless there's a TV, and even that's getting more rare. Hard to believe the number of young people who only watch on a tablet (or phone) and have no need for a TV/Receiver/Speakers. Walk around a modern college campus today and ask the students how many CD's or DVD/BluRays they have. Zero would be the operative number.

Buy a movie? Buy an Album? Why?

We're dinosaurs.

(But that's not who we are, a pebble and a star and a soul)

 

[Sonik Wiz]

Lots of waves of change here, not just the marketing of the hardware, but also the marketing and distribution channels for music and movies changing so dramatically, which drives the hardware. There's not turning back! But, I will never miss paying 59.99 for a new release VHS tape, or worse, 99.99 for a grainy, cropped-picture laser disc!

HA! My first VHS tape was The Last Starfighter. On sale for only $89 marked down from $129. But you know, it was in STEREO! I was into LD's also. People whined a lot about the high cost of DVD's when they came out. For the same reason you said, I thought they we're fair dinkum value.

 

[DoctorO]

We're dinosaurs.

(But that's not who we are, a pebble and a star and a soul)

That's why (many of us) enjoy this forum so much- Lumbering in herds! (It supports survival!)

 

[Sonik Wiz]

Sadly, GONE are the days when one was able to actually take equipment home and try it in one's own listening space to determine if it was indeed a good fit. I used to try interconnects, various components, speakers, etc. with the proviso that I could return them if I wasn't satisfied. But of course, everything came at a price...especially during the heydays of the format wars.

Being a bona fide audio AND video nut had major consequences......VHS, Beta, laserdisc ...... well the clear choice was laserdisc which had it's own peculiarities. Domestically pressed Discovision discs truly sucked.....grainy, they skipped and the rate of returns was nearly 90%. Then Pioneer decided to press the discs in Japan ... which came with higher prices ...... and then Pioneer decided to add Dolby Digital 5.1 [a BIG deal back then for discreteness] and I had to have my pricey Theta Laserdisc player retrofitted for that format at a HEFTY price.

And almost overnight, SONY/PHILIPS introduced the 5" DVD which actually bettered the giant laserdisc significantly....followed by the DVD~Audio/SACD format Wars.

My dealer carried both the high end SONY Stereo only SCD~1 player and the Meridian 800 Reference DVD~A/RBCD player which of course was multichannel. So I dove headlong into what I considered the Superior DVD~A format and of course what seemed like a flash.....both formats were considered duds and cessation of software almost immediately followed [not after SONY decided to implement multichannel in their SACD format].

Of course these high end salons also stressed the importance of interconnects and speaker cables and for those who still believe these 'components' have NO significance in better sounding audio have never experienced swapping cables in one's own system. Some of the differences were jaw dropping .... but came at a price, as well. They also carried various room treatments ..... room tunes, Shakti holograms, etc which I was also allowed to take home and 'experience' in my listening room. I ended up keeping them because they were dramatically effective.

I was also able to get rid of older equipment as 'trade ins" which wasn't always to MY benefit but this was before Audiogon and the internet were viable realities.

Like all the great Record Stores....the high end audio salons went the way of the dinosaur and now all we conceivably have is Best Buy and the like where unknowledgeable salespersons would sell you the proverbial Brooklyn Bridge if they could.

If one still subscribes to Stereophile/The Absolute Sound, hardware manufacturers continue to make high end components costing thousands of dollars but the only way one could try these components out is by contacting them via email or phone and 'arrange' for an audition and of course if you live thousands of miles away .... it could be a bit of a stretch if this would be in any way feasible.

Unfortunately, my 'honeymoon' with my high end audio salon was short~lived as they went bankrupt [as many did], screwing not only their suppliers but their 'loyal' customer base as well.

So basically, we're ON OUR OWN .......and as Sonik Wiz attests ...... it's NOT a pretty picture.

My first love was music and how audio gear reproduced it. I added video pretty quick when the first VHS Hi-Fi decks came out. Sony 27" Trinitron Vega. Likewise I have 4 LD players in my history. My last was the Pioneer DVL-700 purchased on TY/Disclord's recommendation. Still works perfect today.

My best shopping experience was this: In the early 80's I took some profit sharing money and had the chance to buy some "good stuff". There was a store in town at that time called Sound Experience. They happened to carry all the components I was considering. On a short weekday lunch break I ran in to the store very briefly just to get a feel for the place. A sales rep approached, listned to what I was interested in & started to do his thing. I apologized... I don't have time gotta get back to work. He said " stop by on Saturday we'll get some burgers or something & listen to some music." No burgers but he had great advice & what I needed. It resulted in a sale of an Adcom GFP-555 preamp, not one but two Adcom GFA 555 power amps, Big Infinity Kappa 8's for the fron & less big Kappa 7's for the rear. They are still important parts of my system all functioning great with only the woofers needing to be re-foamed once.

 

[4-earredwonder]

My MAJOR disappointment today is the slow transition from BD~V to UHD 4K. The 4K [and even 8K] TVs and UHD 4K players are certainly available in QUANTITY but the trickle of QUALITY UHD 4K movies is sketchy at best. Seems the HARDWARE has exceeded the availability of the SOFTWARE. Do I think this imbalance will change .......... NO. Is UHD 4K the new 3D?

 

[key_wiz]

My MAJOR disappointment today is the slow transition from BD~V to UHD 4K. The TVs and UHD 4K players are certainly available in QUANTITY but the trickle of QUALITY UHD 4K movies is sketchy at best. Seems the HARDWARE has exceeded the availability of the SOFTWARE. Do I think this imbalance will change .......... NO. Is UHD 4K the new 3D?

My guess is 'yes' (albeit for different reasons). I don't think the upgrade in picture quality is great enough for most people to notice or care.

 

[Sonik Wiz]

This is lamentable but it has also had the effect of aging the audiophile population because there is no way for the uninformed to be exposed to good sound systems unless they have had the (mis)fortune to get to know folks like us. I remember being welcome, not just tolerated, as a teenager when I ventured into the 1-2 local stores or any of the ones clustered around Chambers Street (downtown) or 45th Street (midtown) in Manhattan. A bit later, there was the clubby atmosphere at the Audio Breakthroughs in Manhasset near our family home.

The consequence of all this is that I, and many others, became enthusiasts and buyers in that order. How can that happen today?

I remember going with my long haired hippy friends into the audio store at that time. Instead of being shunned we we're welcomed with enthusiasm. That knew that someday we might have decent jobs with decent money & come back. The salesman named Curly (who of course was bald) noticed my friend was reading a Dr Strange book. He said to come with him he had the perfect music to accompany that. He took Jim to one of those white egg shape chairs with stereo speakers built in & told him to saty as long as he wants.
Indeed how can that happen today?

 

[Sonik Wiz]

It can't. People today don't want big speakers with a receiver unless there's a TV, and even that's getting more rare. Hard to believe the number of young people who only watch on a tablet (or phone) and have no need for a TV/Receiver/Speakers. Walk around a modern college campus today and ask the students how many CD's or DVD/BluRays they have. Zero would be the operative number.

Buy a movie? Buy an Album? Why?

We're dinosaurs.

(But that's not who we are, a pebble and a star and a soul)

It is hard to believe. I used to work with a staff of maybe 20 at a medical practice. Most of them we're female & mid-20's. I don't think anyone had a CD, etc. When you don't know what live music sounds like and the only reference you have is your media player or a TV sound bar, then a clumsy demo at NFM doesn't mean so much.

This dinosauer has lived through a very good time period.