Ripping Dolby Atmos to 7.1 Channel FLAC/WAV to Play Using ROON

[nikomen]

It's still a question I am looking for an answer to. It doesn't seem to have a simple answer.

When you rip, there is usually a 5.1 mix available. But there are 2 varieties. A stand alone, dedicated 5.1 mix (can be 24/96) and also a derived 5.1 substream within the Dolby TrueHD stream (typically 24/48). Sometimes both are available on the disc, sometimes only the derived 5.1 stream.

So if you rip all three streams, they play back as:
1. 5.1 dedicated.... Same as if the mixer was supplying a 5.1 DVDA or SACD. It stands on its own. This is a lossless process.
2. 5.1 derived.... Takes the 7.1 stream and folds down to 5.1 using pre set algorithms available to the mixer when the Atmos stream is processed. The result is written on the Blu-ray as the 5.1 Dolby TrueHD substream. I'm not sure how this substream is accessed from a disc player. I believe this is a lossy process, but not sure.
3. 7.1 stream.... The 7.1 stream goes into your processor as 7.1 and is folded down to 5.1 (or even 4.0) using the algorithms found within your AVP/AVR. This should be lossless, I believe

You would think the best option is the 5.1 dedicated mix, especially if it's done by a well known mixer. But this option isn't always available. When it's not, which fold down option works better? Is there even a difference? Try to compare and see.

In my experience, so far in every case I'vw tried, and I have tried manyl, I find that the 5.1 DTS signal, which is usually 96/24 to sound significantly better than any Dolby 5.1 version, whether it is derived from the Atmos signal or not. If there is an additional DTS signal present that says its 6 channel 192/24, that is most often a Quad (usually original mix) that had a silent center and sub.

In answer to a previous posted question, I have purchased many Atmos discs that have come available, and in some cases, IMHO, with my 5.1.4 setup, the 5.1 DTS mix is superior to the Atmos mix overall. Less separated, but better overall sound. In regards to not having a Atmos receiver, or having one but no Atmos speakers connected, after a number of tests, I have used DVD Audio extractor, (after making a BU copy of an Atmos disc with MakeMKV to remove copy protection), I create the 8 channel FLAC files, which includes the 2 height signals. Unfortunately, playing it back with anything less than an Atmos decoder, the height speaker signals just get mixed into the front floor speakers, and I guess they are doubled in my rear speakers since I have a .4 setup. In those cases, again I find the overall sound of the encoded 5.1 DTS signal to sound significantly better AND different than the Atmos mix being played as a 5.1.

I have a different question, but I think I know the answer. I guess the there is no way to take those decrypted FLAC files, and make them play back as they would including the height speakers in my setup? To me, that would be ideal, as most receivers will play back FLAC multichannel files up to 7.1 correctly to the right speakers, and then any FLAC files that were encoded as height speakers, .2 or .4 and above could be added to the end of the multichannel hierarchy (LF/RF/C/(sides +/-)/LR/RR/Atmos.2/Atmos.2, etc.)

Some might ask why that would be important. To me, and I'm sure many other that don't want to pull our our BD every time we want to hear an Atmos mixed album, and want to hear it instead from our drives, and in my case, my 2024 Acura RDX which plays back 5.1 FLAC files beautifully! The other issue that this would fix, is that although creating an .mkv copy of decrypted Atmos can be played back on newer receivers that have an Atmos decoder, making that single .mkv file into individual tracks, like you would like to play them back is as my friend AR surround would say is a PITA! And you still need to play it back through an Atmos decoder in.mkv format!!!!

 

[LuvMyQuad]

In answer to a previous posted question, I have purchased many Atmos discs that have come available, and in some cases, IMHO, with my 5.1.4 setup, the 5.1 DTS mix is superior to the Atmos mix overall. Less separated, but better overall sound. In regards to not having a Atmos receiver, or having one but no Atmos speakers connected, after a number of tests, I have used DVD Audio extractor, (after making a BU copy of an Atmos disc with MakeMKV to remove copy protection), I create the 8 channel FLAC files, which includes the 2 height signals. Unfortunately, playing it back with anything less than an Atmos decoder, the height speaker signals just get mixed into the front floor speakers, and I guess they are doubled in my rear speakers since I have a .4 setup. In those cases, again I find the overall sound of the encoded 5.1 DTS signal to sound significantly better AND different than the Atmos mix being played as a 5.1.

To be clear, All the height information is already present in the 7.1 floor channels. And there are 4 height channels, not 2. And even if you have the height channels in place with an Atmos capable AVR, you cannot decode Atmos from FLAC.

Nothing gets doubled on the downmix. The front height info is reproduced in the front mains and the rear height info in the surrounds.

In my experience, most (but not all) new releases do not have a dedicated 5.1 mix unless they already had a 5.1 mix released previously. They only have a 5.1 substream within the True HD stream. Its usually Dolby Digital (AC3). It almost never sounds good, and certainly not better than the 7.1 downmixed to 5.1. It seems a true 5.1 DTS mix is becoming rare.

 

[ar surround]

I have used DVD Audio extractor, (after making a BU copy of an Atmos disc with MakeMKV to remove copy protection), I create the 8 channel FLAC files, which includes the 2 height signals. Unfortunately, playing it back with anything less than an Atmos decoder, the height speaker signals just get mixed into the front floor speakers,

Jeff, if you extract the TrueHD 7.1 signal to FLAC, all of the Atmos meta data is wiped out. All you’ll hear is straight 7.1 audio…no heights. To play Atmos, you have to keep your rip as an MKV (or convert it to an MKA as I usually do.)

 

[nikomen]

To be clear, All the height information is already present in the 7.1 floor channels. And there are 4 height channels, not 2. And even if you have the height channels in place with an Atmos capable AVR, you cannot decode Atmos from FLAC.

Nothing gets doubled on the downmix. The front height info is reproduced in the front mains and the rear height info in the surrounds.

In my experience, most (but not all) new releases do not have a dedicated 5.1 mix unless they already had a 5.1 mix released previously. They only have a 5.1 substream within the True HD stream. Its usually Dolby Digital (AC3). It almost never sounds good, and certainly not better than the 7.1 downmixed to 5.1. It seems a true 5.1 DTS mix is becoming rare.

Just today I ripped dts-HD MA 5.1 and Quad layers from Carly Simon's No Secrets , Bread's Baby I'm-A-Want You dts-HD MA Quad layer, Chicago IX's 5.1 dts-HD MA layer, as well as Black Sabbath's Live Evil dts-HD MA 5.1 layer, NOT AC3 derived from the Atmos signals. These have all been released within the last 30 days. The same goes for Robin Trower's Bridge Of Sighs Atmos Box Set, Seals & Crofts Summer Breeze Quadio, The Best of The Doors, Hootie and The Blowfish Atmos standalone disc, and all are recent releases with a dts-HD MA 5.1 layer encoded on the discs. The exceptions seem to be The SDE Surround Series, which have the AC3 derived from the Atmos layer. IMHO, dts-HD MA sounds way better than the shitty old Dolby Digital AC anything, except for Atmos, and I think that's why the studios prefer to make a DTS 5.1 over AC3.

 

[nikomen]

Jeff, if you extract the TrueHD 7.1 signal to FLAC, all of the Atmos meta data is wiped out. All you’ll hear is straight 7.1 audio…no heights. To play Atmos, you have to keep your rip as an MKV (or convert it to an MKA as I usually do.)

John I don't rip or listen to the TrueHD 7.1 signal because I found that to be the case. I either listen to the disc, or the MKA. I was just making the point that it would be to everyone's benefit if you could rip Atmos to FLAC and have it play back correctly. I understand there is no way to do that, at least now.

 

[SeeMoreDigital]

John I don't rip or listen to the TrueHD 7.1 signal because I found that to be the case. I either listen to the disc, or the MKA.

Just so you know... The term 'mka' refers to a container format. It is possible to place a huge variety of lossy and lossless audio formats within an .mka container, including: Dolby TrueHD (with or without Atmos), DTS-HD MA and even flac.

 

[nikomen]

Just so you know... The term 'mka' refers to a container format. It is possible to place a huge variety of lossy and lossless audio formats within an .mka container, including: Dolby TrueHD (with or without Atmos), DTS-HD MA and even flac.

I understand, thx! Well, in this case I'm referring to audio extractions from Atmos discs using MakeMKV. It's unfortunate that the only way to play them back is if you have an Atmos decoder, either in your AVR (which my Denon does), or in my case my car, though will play up to 7.1 multichannel files it doesn't read .mka files, or .mk anything. My wish would be that Dolby wouldn't be such PITA's in respect to 3D audio sound experience, as to create a system that you have to have their decoder in order to play back all the music on their discs correctly. It seems that DTS:X has lost the current VHS/BetaMax war, but it would be interesting to know if an AVR that is capable of playing back DTS:X discs/files like mine is, would it be able to place the 3D overhead surround fields correctly if there were encoded as FLAC files? I've never seen one of these discs, but it would be interesting to test it.

IMHO back in the day, VHS had better video quality, but what was more important to me was the sound quality, which was far better on BetaMax. I have also found that with all the different iterations of dts and Dobly over the years, I have always preferred the dts signals over Dolby, which to me sounds "muddier" than its dts equal level dts counterpart. I guessI'll never know if DTS:X is a better sounding 3D experience than Atmos

 

[SeeMoreDigital]

but it would be interesting to know if an AVR that is capable of playing back DTS:X discs/files like mine is, would it be able to place the 3D overhead surround fields correctly if there were encoded as FLAC files?

Nope, it's not possible to convert DTS:X to flac and keep the meta-data required to decode the height/overhead channels.

 

[nikomen]

Nope, it's not possible to convert DTS:X to flac and keep the meta-data required to decode the height/overhead channels.

That's equally disappointing

 

[LuvMyQuad]

Just today I ripped dts-HD MA 5.1 and Quad layers from Carly Simon's No Secrets , Bread's Baby I'm-A-Want You dts-HD MA Quad layer, Chicago IX's 5.1 dts-HD MA layer, as well as Black Sabbath's Live Evil dts-HD MA 5.1 layer, NOT AC3 derived from the Atmos signals. These have all been released within the last 30 days. The same goes for Robin Trower's Bridge Of Sighs Atmos Box Set, Seals & Crofts Summer Breeze Quadio, The Best of The Doors, Hootie and The Blowfish Atmos standalone disc, and all are recent releases with a dts-HD MA 5.1 layer encoded on the discs. The exceptions seem to be The SDE Surround Series, which have the AC3 derived from the Atmos layer. IMHO, dts-HD MA sounds way better than the shitty old Dolby Digital AC anything, except for Atmos, and I think that's why the studios prefer to make a DTS 5.1 over AC3.

All of the titles you mentioned, except the Trower, have already had a quad or 5.1 release in the past, and i noted this in my post. They werent newly mixed. They are re-releases. The latest Peter Gabriel, David Gilmour, Mark Knopfler, Big Big Train, Fish...etc. none have dedicated 5.1 mixes.

 

[nikomen]

That's may be true, but worse, it's unfortunate. Because the people that don't have Atmos are forced to listen to those "muddy sounding" 5.1 Dolby mixes

 

[LuvMyQuad]

That's may be true, but worse, it's unfortunate. Because the people that don't have Atmos are forced to listen to those "muddy sounding" 5.1 Dolby mixes

I agree. It's unfortunate. But to be honest, before I had Atmos capability, I played many an Atmos track, downmixed from 7.1 on a 5.1 rig and was pretty pleased with the result. You have to play the 7.1 tracks, not the 5.1 DD stuff. Since I rip everything, it's easy to isolate the 7.1 true HD stream.

 

[nikomen]

I agree. It's unfortunate. But to be honest, before I had Atmos capability, I played many an Atmos track, downmixed from 7.1 on a 5.1 rig and was pretty pleased with the result. You have to play the 7.1 tracks, not the 5.1 DD stuff. Since I rip everything, it's easy to isolate the 7.1 true HD stream.

I just tried that with the new Carly Simon No Secrets Atmos disc. Since that has a dts 5.1 layer, after backing up with MakeMKV, I ripped to FLAC both the TrueHD 7.1 layer and the dts-HD MA layer, when I played them both on my 5.1.4 rig, the dts-HD MA 5.1 layer is outstanding, bold, crisp, more forceful with greater dynamic range than the more mellow mix of the DD. Just my take. I'll try again and see if that's always the case for me.

 

[LuvMyQuad]

I just tried that with the new Carly Simon No Secrets Atmos disc. Since that has a dts 5.1 layer, after backing up with MakeMKV, I ripped to FLAC both the TrueHD 7.1 layer and the dts-HD MA layer, when I played them both on my 5.1.4 rig, the dts-HD MA 5.1 layer is outstanding, bold, crisp, more forceful with greater dynamic range than the more mellow mix of the DD. Just my take. I'll try again and see if that's always the case for me.

Like I said, the DD stream is usually pretty poor. After all, it's lossy AC3. I'd go with a dedicated 5.1 if available or a downmix of the 7.1.

But if you are Atmos equipped, why are you playing 5.1?

 

[nikomen]

I have 5.1.4, but don't like the fact the Atmos MakeMKV rips wind up being one long song without breaks. A QQ friend of mine splits them into individual songs, but that always doesn't go perfectly where track 2 & 3 are one combined track, and still have to open it with VLC or WMP.

 

[LuvMyQuad]

I have 5.1.4, but don't like the fact the Atmos MakeMKV rips wind up being one long song without breaks. A QQ friend of mine splits them into individual songs, but that always doesn't go perfectly where track 2 & 3 are one combined track, and still have to open it with VLC or WMP.

I keep them as one continousl mka file but I also use a cue file to "split" them into tracks. When I play them back using kodi it's just like playing flac files. There is a list of track titles, times, etc. If you split them into chapters, they don't play gapless the way flac does. I think the cue file works with vlc as well.

 

[SeeMoreDigital]

I think the cue file works with vlc as well.

Indeed it does. Same too with Media Player Classic-BE (MPC-BE)...

 

[nikomen]

I keep them as one continousl mka file but I also use a cue file to "split" them into tracks. When I play them back using kodi it's just like playing flac files. There is a list of track titles, times, etc. If you split them into chapters, they don't play gapless the way flac does. I think the cue file works with vlc as well.

 

[nikomen]

Most commonly I use my laptop to play back through my main system, and I make copes of it all on my 2 TB flash drive I play in my car, but it's mainly albums that I've upmixed to 5.1, as well as 5.1 rips. That's why I wish I could play back Atmos files in my car.

I do have VLC media player and all of my music (well, not really, just about 3 TB that that I've ripped of some of my CD's, etc.on a hard drive attached to it. I never really play it that way, but maybe I should try it. I do like how it organizes music files. I'm assuming you use MakeMKV to rip your Atmos discs. If you do that as one long track, does it create the cue file automatically, and when you play it back with Kodi on your VLC, do you just click on the cue file to open it to songs?

 

[LuvMyQuad]

Read this.

https://www.quadraphonicquad.com/forums/threads/mmh-how-to-create-cue-files-for-mkv-files.30206/

It's not an automatic process but it isn't that complicated either.

With kodi it's seamless. The cue file appears the same as if you'd opened a CD. With VLC you click on the cue file instead of the mkv file.