Rolling Stones Goats Head Soup Deluxe Edition (with 5.1 & Dolby Atmos mixes!)

[knifeman]

I also do not have Atmos and was counting on a 5.1 lossless mix as advertised. If the bit rate is as poor as above I will be asking to return this for false advertising. Any shipping damage will be an extra negative.

No Atmos here, either. I was definitely going to buy this eventually, based on the inclusion of a dedicated 5.1 mix, in addition to the Atmos. But now, I'm not sure. I really like the three new/old songs and eventually I probably will get Atmos, so maybe I'll still bite. But it sucks for people who pre-ordered and now have to live with a less than optimal quasi-5.1 instead of the real deal.

 

[Scott M4]

I know this isn't quite the right forum for this, but Ralphie check out this review/history of the JBL 4311

https://www.mixonline.com/technology/1974-jbl-4311-studio-monitors-383603
So if you folks REALLY want to HEAR what your favorite CLASSIC ROCK ALBUMS should sound like these are the ones to get

JBL 4311s are my front L+R speakers. With their 12" woofers, there's no need for a sub.

 

[skherbeck]

I'm really happy to get another Giles Martin mix, but as with many of his mixes I felt the need to make some adjustments here and there (I think Abbey Road and Love are his only mixes where I didn't feel that way). Keeping this in mind, it's great that those of us with 5.1 systems have access to this 7.1 mix because instead of just adjusting the rears up or down, you get 2 extra tracks of discrete elements that can be adjusted independently in the rear channels. For example, If the piano, horns, or harmonica on various tracks are too loud, you can adjust their levels in the rear channels to your liking without messing with the reverbs and echoes and such (which I needed to do) because they tend to be isolated in those extra 7.1 channels. I also felt that some of the tunes are a bit bass shy (maybe they were originally mixed that way since Bill Wyman only played on a few tracks?), so I made some adjustments there as well. Overall, I hope we get more Stones mixes by Giles... he does a decent job (and we could do much worse!)

 

[H.A.L.]

In or on, would not work for me. Those Cantons look nice.

Continuing this off-topic, short of an earthquake (not likely in my zone), these stands in the front corners work just fine for the heights, and are surprisingly stable. Of course, it's only bookshelf speakers, but they work well with my modest Dolby Atmos system. Lounge listening seats are in the sweet zone, and the corner baffling hides the stands when you are seated (hmm . . . just noted an off-kilter baffle; fixed!). The sub-woofer in each corner provides extra height for the stands, and there is no rattle!

The rear heights are in the ceiling, a legacy from the previous owner, and are A-frame angled perfectly. Should do the same with my fronts, I suppose, but it would be quite the job, and I don't really trust the pull-down ladder going up into my attic.

 

[JonUrban]

So I was messing around with these files. I redid the MKV rip, this time with Garry's "Multi-Media Helper" program, which, by the way is awesome:

And I have been running the 7.1 files on my PC to try and get a grip on the differences between the 7.1 and the "fake" 5.1 that's on the disc. My thought being that if the 7.1 is a higher bit depth that might sound better, why not create my own 5.1 from the 7.1, by either folding the extra two channels into either the fronts or the rears, depending on where the content match is best.

Has anyone else tried this?

And, if the 5.1 on the disc is a lessor audio quality mix, why? Why can't it be the same as the 7.1 mix? Although I think I understand the whole 'Atmos Encoding' in the 7.1 mix that the proper decoders can send around to the various 5.1.2, 7.1.2, 5.1.4, 7.1.4 or 9.1.2 speaker arrays the end user may have, I don't see why the 5.1 "core" would have to be a reduced quality mix.

If it turns out that the best way for a 5.1 user to hear Atmos mix content in 5.1 is for them to downmix the 7.1 mix themselves, then that's a pretty annoying step for those who do not have the money, time, space, or desire to go full-on Atmos.

 

[Mcallister]

Easy enough for you to test yourself if you have an Atmos MKV rip you've done.

Doesn’t work

 

[J. PUPSTER]

So I was messing around with these files. I redid the MKV rip, this time with Garry's "Multi-Media Helper" program, which, by the way is awesome:

View attachment 56105

View attachment 56106

And I have been running the 7.1 files on my PC to try and get a grip on the differences between the 7.1 and the "fake" 5.1 that's on the disc. My thought being that if the 7.1 is a higher bit depth that might sound better, why not create my own 5.1 from the 7.1, by either folding the extra two channels into either the fronts or the rears, depending on where the content match is best.

Has anyone else tried this?

And, if the 5.1 on the disc is a lessor audio quality mix, why? Why can't it be the same as the 7.1 mix? Although I think I understand the whole 'Atmos Encoding' in the 7.1 mix that the proper decoders can send around to the various 5.1.2, 7.1.2, 5.1.4, 7.1.4 or 9.1.2 speaker arrays the end user may have, I don't see why the 5.1 "core" would have to be a reduced quality mix.

If it turns out that the best way for a 5.1 user to hear Atmos mix content in 5.1 is for them to downmix the 7.1 mix themselves, then that's a pretty annoying step for those who do not have the money, time, space, or desire to go full-on Atmos.

Glad you asked! - Yup, tried that on the 7.1 being 24/48; and was messing around with the almost non-existent guitar in the Rear Surrounds on that first song. At first I tried merging it with the 5.1 rears and even after boosting it 25dbs it just made things messy competing with the piano in the rears. Then I put it in it's own rear right channel, but that didn't sound right to me either, just a lack of overall cohesion. So yesterday, I merged it into the Center channel (thinking is, maybe that strumming acoustic could be Mick playing) and I'm liking that much better.

But this is why I was questioning how this whole automated down mix thing works on stuff like this, because if just blended into the rears "as is" that guitar is not going to be heard! I still haven't heard a qualified explanation of the down mix process.

 

[JonUrban]

Glad you asked! - Yup, tried that on the 7.1 being 24/48; and was messing around with the almost non-existent guitar in the Rear Surrounds on that first song. At first I tried merging it with the 5.1 rears and even after boosting it 25dbs it just made things messy competing with the piano in the rears. Then I put it in it's own rear right channel, but that didn't sound right to me either, just a lack of overall cohesion. So yesterday, I merged it into the Center channel (thinking is, maybe that strumming acoustic could be Mick playing) and I'm liking that much better.

But this is why I was questioning how this whole automated down mix thing works on stuff like this, because if just blended into the rears "as is" that guitar is not going to be heard! I still haven't heard a qualified explanation of the down mix process.

Unfortunately, (or fortunately, depending on how you look at it), this is not an album that I ever owned and consequently I have not heard it a lot. Aside from the two singles, I really don't know the songs enough to try and come up with a competent mix of my own. The only song I really know is "Angie", and that 7.1 mix has the two acoustic guitars in the 7th and 8th channel at an incredibly low volume level.

However, these two guitars are also in the front channels, so they really are redundant. This whole thing is a mess. I am really starting to believe that the big Atmos-push we read about last year will in fact get a lot more surround releases for us to spend money on, it's just that the basics of 5.1 are going to be an afterthought to those creators and almost like an albatross to them. Like including the DVD in the Bluray case when BluRay movies first appeared.

 

[jefe1]

Good point Jon.

So are we all going to be forced to go Atmos to hear these as intended? Not what I signed up for.
And even in atmos there are what mastering errors or bad decisions?

I think surround mixing has been around long enough for there to be somewhat of a consensus or agreement about minimal standards to use the extra speakers that are available. I dont mean a paint by numbers chart showing what instrument goes in what speaker.
Maybe a class needs to be taught on surround mixing.

I dont even know how to archive my discs let alone become an amateur mix engineer and "fix" these discs.

Did any of the Stones hear these new mixes and approve them?
I foresee a lot of bad atmos mixes coming our way and another industry failure in the works.

 

[sjcorne]

If it turns out that the best way for a 5.1 user to hear Atmos mix content in 5.1 is for them to downmix the 7.1 mix themselves, then that's a pretty annoying step for those who do not have the money, time, space, or desire to go full-on Atmos.

If you're on a 5.1-only setup, your Blu-Ray player will do this for you. I get TrueHD 5.1 48/24 when I play this disc, and the only song that sounds genuinely botched to me is "Dancing With Mr. D". The rest is pretty good with lots of cool stuff going on in the rears.

 

[himey]

Piggy backing from Jon's post, has anyone made their own 5.1, from the 7.1 Atmos bed, and compared it to either the discs 5.1 DD and/or your own processors 5.1 downmix?

 

[himey]

If you're on a 5.1-only setup, your Blu-Ray player will do this for you. I get TrueHD 5.1 48/24 when I play this disc, and the only song that sounds genuinely botched to me is "Dancing With Mr. D". The rest is pretty good with lots of cool stuff going on in the rears.

We posted at the same time.

I would just add that if someone is going from bluray player to processor, over HDMI, it might be better to leave the player in 7.1 and let the processor/receiver downmix?

 

[timbre4]

Ryan (rtbluray) mentioned to me that he'd added the extra channels content to the fronts or rears depending on the song. I'm sure he'll be adding to this topic when time permits.

 

[J. PUPSTER]

It will be interesting to hear what others are doing with this, as far as self down mixing. I really don't like putting a spot light on this sort of thing, kind of leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Similar to Jon, I'm not real familiar with the Goats Head Soup album except for the obvious radio hits, but feel there is a lot to like about it depending on the song, and after all, it's getting pretty solid votes on the Poll.

Maybe shouldn't compare it to something like the Doobie Brothers Quadio; i.e. the obvious band style differences, but similar time periods. But as in a lot of the Rolling Stones music, they're not the cleanest sounding recordings to begin with IMO. But I'd bet if you listen to the 5.1 fold down of this and then listen to some of the Doobie Brothers Quadio; you'll hear an amazing improvement in sound quality, which I don't even think is attributed to the fact that one is 24/48 res. Dolby TrueHD and the other is 24/192 res., but the way they were recorded and the more raucous intent for the overall sound by the producers and band (R.S.) that they may have been going for.

 

[HomerJAU]

Doesn’t work

Is there an update to JRiver?

The current official version of Kodi (18.8) won’t play Atmos M4A files but Kodi 19 alpha 1 (the next official release) does.

Until very recently TrueHD could not be muxed to an mpeg container. Support for this only came in last couple of months.

Foobar will also play these if you use the very latest ffmpeg version

 

[humprof]

I’m ripping the Atmos tracks using makemkv. Anyone know a way to play them back in Atmos through JRiver?

Not sure JRiver will play Atmos. Windows Media Center (or whatever they're calling it these days) will, however, as Windows 10 handles Atmos natively over HDMI. @HomerJAU claims here that the current alpha version of Kodi and foobar (with the proper plugin) will, too.

(Edit: sorry--I should have kept reading the thread before I replied. I see now that Homer spoke up on his own!)

 

[marpow]

Here are a couple good answers to my question on the JRiver Forum.
1.
The ONLY way to get Atmos is to bitstream the audio from the video file. There is no way to convert the Atmos track to another format. You can use the True HD 7.1 track but not Atmos.

Rip the MKV as you would a movie, then play it back as you would a movie making sure that you are set to bitstream.

You can setup a Zone Switch in MC to automatically change between a bitstream zone and a non-bitstream zone.

-- This all assumes you have a receiver/pre-pro that handles Atmos.

2.
Atmos is addition to TrueHD ... so Atmos sound tracks are TrueHD tracks with Atmos metadata embedded in.

You have to understand that Atmos is not just decoded but also calculated base on number of height channels you have and their relative position. So my 4 height channels output might be different from yours cause their position is different from yours.

So to play Atmos ... the decoder/receiver must receive full TrueHD with Atmos metadata ... if receiver is capable to do Atmos - it will do Atmos ... if not - it will just do TrueHD

There is nothing on PC that can decode/calculate Atmos ... that’s include MC that can do only TrueHD portion

But MC can bitstream (send unaltered TrueHD with Atmos metadata) to receiver ... so receiver can decode/calculate sound for your heights. That’s the only way to play Atmos from PC.

In short ... for Atmos ... you need receiver that can do Atmos ... then use JRiver to bitstream Atmos to that receiver

PS. Rippining Atmos track to FLAC ... will only get TrueHD potion of track ... all Atmos metadata is loss in these sort of conversion

PSS. As I mention earlier ... as of now ... MC does bitstreaming only for files that contain video ... if you ripped Atmos as audio only in mka container (which preserves Atmos metadata), MC will not bitstream that ... so you will only get TrueHD potion ... Hendrick mention that bitstreaming audio only file are on their to do list ... but quite low priority

 

[HomerJAU]

MC does bitstreaming only for files that contain video

You can use MMH to split your MKV rip (that includes the TrureHD/Atmos stream) into individual MKV files (one per chapter/song) and play Atmos over HDMI. The files won’t be tagged but you should still be able to play each file or all files ok in JRiver.

 

[marpow]

You can use MMH to split your MKV rip (that includes the TrureHD/Atmos stream) into individual MKV files (one per chapter/song) and play Atmos over HDMI. The files won’t be tagged but you should still be able to play each file or all files ok in JRiver.

Yeah, I have always done that since day one, you have been a great teacher Garry.
MKV for the rip and MMH for the tag. I will probably have to re rip my Atmos collection, but while I get my new system warmed up the physical discs will be fine.
Hardwood floors went in today, yeah, paint baseboard tomorrow, Starting with TV mount on Friday and then start rebuilding the engine.

 

[marpow]

My CDJapan order arrived today, Goats Head Soup, Herbie Hancock 7", Stones SHM CD Live (Bob Clearmountain Mix), and two my very first MQA discs. The rock sampler has a RBCD and a MQA disc so the listener can hear the difference.