Rolling Stones Goats Head Soup Deluxe Edition (with 5.1 & Dolby Atmos mixes!)

[~dave~~wave~]

So that "compatible" AC3 640kbps mix will only be heard in older/vintage blu ray players.

Until somebody proves me wrong, that's my understanding.

Or from the rip @JonUrban listens to in his car.
He has a lot to answer for for starting us down this rabbit hole and pouring gasoline on a wisp of smoke.

 

[EricKalet]

Yay! We've got this figured out now!!

Summary:

1. Most Blu Ray players will play or digitally stream TrueHD 5.1, 7.1 or Atmos mix.
2. Older players will sense the AC3 640kbps (assumption made by me - most of us probably do not have any of these vintage players).
3. This release does not have the promised/advertised 5.1 DTS MA mix.

 

[~dave~~wave~]

Yay! We've got this figured out now!!

Summary:

1. Most Blu Ray players will play or digitally stream TrueHD 5.1, 7.1 or Atmos mix.
2. Older players will sense the AC3 640kbps (assumption made by me - most of us probably do not have any of these vintage players).
3. This release does not have the promised/advertised 5.1 DTS MA mix.

Agreed.
I would add:

4. Unless somebody produces scientific evidence to the contrary...
the lack of the advertised DTS MA mix doesn't make a damn bit of difference in the quality of 5.1 blu ray playback from Atmos.

Rippers are on their own, that's what they signed up for, and good luck to them.

 

[Marplot]

Not really a fan of this album so took a pass at that price, but I am really learning quite a bit about formats. Thanks.

 

[EricKalet]

Agreed.
I would add:

4. Unless somebody produces scientific evidence to the contrary...
the lack of the advertised DTS MA mix doesn't make a damn bit of difference in the quality of 5.1 blu ray playback from Atmos.

Rippers are on their own, that's what they signed up for, and good luck to them.

I second that, I think that is precisely why the DTS MA mix is not on the disc.

 

[jefe1]

So I guess we can all agree this mix is not going to sound better no matter what we call it or if the bluray had the 5.1 DTS MA mix .............

 

[himey]

Agreed.
I would add:

4. Unless somebody produces scientific evidence to the contrary...
the lack of the advertised DTS MA mix doesn't make a damn bit of difference in the quality of 5.1 blu ray playback from Atmos.

Rippers are on their own, that's what they signed up for, and good luck to them.

Have you compared the dedicated 5.1 on Abbey Road to reach these conclusions or are you speculating based on what you are reading about the format downmix capabilities?

I haven't done a proper comparison but I will, especially it someone starts a thread on the subject.

Two reasons why nobody said anything about the Kraftwerk mix. 1) It wasn't advertised as having a dedicated 5.1 mix. 2) Not as many people care about Kraftwerk (sadly). Bonus 3) The SQ is so good along with the mix...

 

[himey]

So I guess we can all agree this mix is not going to sound better no matter what we call it or if the bluray had the 5.1 DTS MA mix .............

Some people like it...

 

[himey]

I can say this I am certainly not investing in an Atmos system for this album........But will the advertised separate 5.1 mix be much different than what the atmos stream converts to?

Will? ...or would?

Do you have the Abbey Road disc to form your own judgment?

 

[sjcorne]

Unless somebody produces scientific evidence to the contrary...
the lack of the advertised DTS MA mix doesn't make a damn bit of difference in the quality of 5.1 blu ray playback from Atmos.

Perhaps, but the uncertain aspect of this for me is that Atmos/7.1 downmix doesn't necessarily happen at the same spot in the signal chain for everyone. It seems like most folks here have an older AVR with no Atmos decoder and a 5.1 speaker setup. In that scenario, the downmixing can be done by Blu-Ray player (if set to send decoded PCM to the AVR) or by the AVR (if set to send undecoded bitstream to the receiver). Are those results identical? Another scenario could be a listener with an Atmos-compatible AVR, but only 5 speakers. Is decoded Atmos sent through only five channels the same as the 8-channel TrueHD audio sent though five channels? And is that also the same as the AC3 6-channel core audio?

I don't have the proper gear to make all those comparisons, so I can't say if it makes a difference or not - but it seems unlikely to me that all those extra variables in play would have no impact on what people are hearing. The inclusion of the DTS-HD stream would've guaranteed identical results for all listeners with standard 5.1 systems.

Some people like it...

I'm still happy with both the surround mix and fidelity on this one.

 

[HomerJAU]

I’ve given Atmos 7.1.4, 7.1.2 and a TrueHD 7.1 channel test files to 3 QQers to test what they hear on 5.1 systems. This should provide scientific results on what is downmixed by AVRs.

EDIT: The test files have discrete channel sounds, played one channel at a time.

When played on your 5.1 system do you still hear all the 7.1 Core (bed) channels in 5.1 even though its a 7.1 mix? If the answer is YES then you are missing nothing from a 7.1 mix in your 5.1 system.

Can you hear the height speakers in 7.1.2 and 7.1.4? Same conclusion can be reached.

The results may depend on whether system AVR has an Atmos decoder. But these tests should give us real world results and stop the conjecture.

On my PC 5,1 system 7.1 FLAC is downmixed to 5.1 with all channels heard. The sides and rear channels get mixed to my sides.

 

[JonUrban]

Until somebody proves me wrong, that's my understanding.

Or from the rip @JonUrban listens to in his car.
He has a lot to answer for for starting us down this rabbit hole and pouring gasoline on a wisp of smoke.

Alright you. Better watch that or I may be forced to ban Snood!

 

[~dave~~wave~]

I’ve given Atmos 7.1.4, 7.1.2 and a TrueHD 7.1 channel test files to 3 QQers to test what they hear on 5.1 systems. This should provide scientific results on what is downmixed by AVRs.

EDIT: The test files have discrete channel sounds, played one channel at a time.

When played on your 5.1 system do you still hear all the 7.1 Core (bed) channels in 5.1 even though its a 7.1 mix? If the answer is YES then you are missing nothing from a 7.1 mix in your 5.1 system.

Can you hear the height speakers in 7.1.2 and 7.1.4? Same conclusion can be reached.

The results may depend on whether system AVR has an Atmos decoder. But these tests should give us real world results and stop the conjecture.

On my PC 5,1 system 7.1 FLAC is downmixed to 5.1 with all channels heard. The sides and rear channels get mixed to my sides.

Thanks for agreeing this is worth investigating and investing the effort.

It seems we can't assume going forward Atmos releases will include a separate 5.1 mix.

 

[~dave~~wave~]

Have you compared the dedicated 5.1 on Abbey Road to reach these conclusions or are you speculating based on what you are reading about the format downmix capabilities?

I haven't done a proper comparison but I will, especially it someone starts a thread on the subject.

Two reasons why nobody said anything about the Kraftwerk mix. 1) It wasn't advertised as having a dedicated 5.1 mix. 2) Not as many people care about Kraftwerk (sadly). Bonus 3) The SQ is so good along with the mix...

I absolutely have compared the Abbey road mixes and found them identical to my elderly ears on my system.
Sony X800 (2017) HDMI to Yamaha RX-V375 (2014) AVR.
Average consumer-grade affordable home theater type stuff.

Look forward to your observations, if you agree that would be a fair and worthwhile comparison.
What do you think would be a good title for a new thread, if I started one, that would make it clear what we're discussing?

"DOES ABBEY ROAD PROVE ATMOS MIX FOR GOATS HEAD SOUP DECODES TO 5.1 CORRECTLY?"
"WHY THE HATE FOR GOATS HEAD SOUP?"
"IF YOU OWN ABBEY ROAD BLU RAY AND A 5.1 AVR, KINDLY STEP INSIDE..."

Open to suggestions.

Good observations on the Kraftwerk.
Wonder what percentage of folks voting 10 listened in 5.1 vs Atmos?

 

[HomerJAU]

I'm going to start a new thread. "Atmos and TrueHD 7.1 playback on 5.1 systems". Its not just Abbey Rd or Goats Head. This is about Atmos/TrueHD on ALL discs and media files.

 

[HomerJAU]

I absolutely have compared the Abbey road mixes and found them identical to my elderly ears on my system.

I've played back a few of my Atmos albums as Atmos and 7.1. I have absolutely no doubt that Atmos sounds more immersive (7.1.4) vs 7.1 (on the floor). Atmos is a worthwhile upgrade (to me, as a surround music fan). 7.1 was a worthwhile upgrade when I upgraded from 5.1.

Have I ever heard anything in the Atmos mix that I didn't hear in the 7.1 mix? No. The localisation of sounds is different. Atmos is more pleasing and a better surround listen. That's it. I would choose Atmos over 5.1 if I had a choice of releases.

 

[himey]

I've played back a few of my Atmos albums as Atmos and 7.1. I have absolutely no doubt that Atmos sounds more immersive (7.1.4) vs 7.1 (on the floor). Atmos is a worthwhile upgrade (to me, as a surround music fan). 7.1 was a worthwhile upgrade when I upgraded from 5.1.

Have I ever heard anything in the Atmos mix that I didn't hear in the 7.1 mix? No. The localisation of sounds is different. Atmos is more pleasing and a better surround listen. That's it. I would choose Atmos over 5.1 if I had a choice of releases.

I don't think anyone has argued that point?

The rabbit hole is the multitude of systems set up for 5.1 now, and the folks that aren't planning to upgrade to 3D height speakers for a couple handfuls of 3D audio releases.

Does your best Atmos experience trump every 2D listening experience?

 

[HomerJAU]

Does your best Atmos experience trump every 2D listening experience?

For the same release/mix, yes. (I don’t have every Atmos release, but so far it’s a yes)

 

[himey]

For the same release/mix, yes. (I don’t have every Atmos release, but so far it’s a yes)

That wasn't my question. Haha.

 

[himey]

Perhaps, but the uncertain aspect of this for me is that Atmos/7.1 downmix doesn't necessarily happen at the same spot in the signal chain for everyone. It seems like most folks here have an older AVR with no Atmos decoder and a 5.1 speaker setup. In that scenario, the downmixing can be done by Blu-Ray player (if set to send decoded PCM to the AVR) or by the AVR (if set to send undecoded bitstream to the receiver). Are those results identical? Another scenario could be a listener with an Atmos-compatible AVR, but only 5 speakers. Is decoded Atmos sent through only five channels the same as the 8-channel TrueHD audio sent though five channels? And is that also the same as the AC3 6-channel core audio?

I don't have the proper gear to make all those comparisons, so I can't say if it makes a difference or not - but it seems unlikely to me that all those extra variables in play would have no impact on what people are hearing. The inclusion of the DTS-HD stream would've guaranteed identical results for all listeners with standard 5.1 systems.



I'm still happy with both the surround mix and fidelity on this one.

Holy crap. Not sure how I missed your post earlier but this is exactly what I was just saying to Garry.

So many permutations that there will never be a consensus on this for those with 5.1 setups, which are the majority. A 5.1 mix direct from the software just streamlines everything and takes the guesswork out of the equation.