SACD's Survival

[sjcorne]

Brickwalled and lossy to make sure a pirate can't get a good quality version!

That's not what drives the loudness war, it's got more to do with competition and "playlist culture" - if you compile a bunch of songs from different albums or eras into a single playlist, applying dynamic compression ensures the volume stays uniform from track to track.

 

[par4ken]

That's not what drives the loudness war, it's got more to do with competition and "playlist culture" - if you compile a bunch of songs from different albums or eras into a single playlist, applying dynamic compression ensures the volume stays uniform from track to track.

They have ReplayGain for that!

 

[barfle]

That is a wrong assumption, not wanting a disc etc. I will still buy multichannel releases in a physical format, but they seem to be fewer releases and more bloated packages that are big bucks that I won’t commit to when I can get the atmos stream from Apple for a fraction of the cost and get more music. Way of the world. Horse and buggy to car. LP’s to cassettes etc and now with technology streaming. Why fight it? I don’t have enough time left in me to get excited about a disc or stream when it comes out of the same speakers. Give me my music. Do I love the sound of a V8? Damn straight. But guess what? I can get an electric car that will blow it out of the water zero to sixty. No rumble, but time and life move on. Just because I’m 65 doesn’t mean I can’t still open my mind and accept the new realities. Makes life easier. I enjoy my music. The record industry is dictating to us that we will be streaming. I just accept it. And now I finally got my Dwight Twilley music thanks to streaming. There is an upside. Thanks for listening or commenting.

Oh, I'm not fighting anything. If I can get a piece in a download, sure, I'll take that. But even if I were of the camp that would only take physical media, I would be limiting myself as to what was available to me.

Is streaming the future? Hell, it's the present! But I bet you'll never find a stream of half of the material I have on vinyl. Or maybe even shellac.

I'm not stuck on any particular format - and at 75, I'm probably as computer-literate as most 25 year-olds. In fact, I taught computer technologies to 25 year-olds for years. But to reject a piece of music because it's not coming over the Internet? That's limiting, and your earlier post claimed that you were doing exactly that.

I’m declaring the death of SACD, Blu ray etc. in my life.

 

[barfle]

I'm going to amend what I just wrote above. I've gotten rid of tape in my collection. I've had plenty of different tape formats in my life: reel-to-reel, 8-track, and cassette, (and four video tape formats!) usually with pretty good equipment in my system. But I've found them all to be unreliable. I would have liked to have experienced Q8, but my experience with stereo 8 tracks is that the pinch rollers turn to the consistency of chewing gum after a few years. And if the tape gets twisted in the cartridge, that's a royal mess. So I found (for the most part) disc or digital copies of my taped material.

I know there are several fellow QQers who have tape equipment and love it. I'm not saying they're wrong, just that it was something I couldn't keep up with.

 

[Todd 987]

Oh, I'm not fighting anything. If I can get a piece in a download, sure, I'll take that. But even if I were of the camp that would only take physical media, I would be limiting myself as to what was available to me.

Is streaming the future? Hell, it's the present! But I bet you'll never find a stream of half of the material I have on vinyl. Or maybe even shellac.

I'm not stuck on any particular format - and at 75, I'm probably as computer-literate as most 25 year-olds. In fact, I taught computer technologies to 25 year-olds for years. But to reject a piece of music because it's not coming over the Internet? That's limiting, and your earlier post claimed that you were doing exactly that.

Limiting? My brother, I am the happiest and luckiest person alive! I soak up the universe every nano second and take complete and total joy in everything this universe wants to show me. I hope your 75 years have been as good as my 65. That’s what it’s about. Disc! Stream! None of it matters. What matters is what happens when the music enters my ears, complete and utter happiness and a heart that starts to vibrate. My version of life and music. Barfie, enjoy your music, play air guitar, and I toast you. Nothing but love. In any format.

 

[Quadly McQuadmeister]

If you can't hold it in your hand AND (have the option to) air gap it from the Internet, you don't own it, period. Anybody who's had experiences with Sony's early '00s Blu-Ray players can tell you about what that's like. I had a copy of "Lord Of War" go deader than 4:59:59 p.m. on a Friday afternoon when there was some licensing dispute between the original studio and whomever they had some authorship dust up. I bought a second copy issued with different credentials (both were authored for the domestic home video market, btw) and it played fine. That same player's drive shut down playing CD's some years after that, and about a decade after THAT, all the fallout from Sony (in cahoots with Apple) corrupting CDs with malware broke out in the news. It makes a strong case for good old analog from where I sit. But I don't discriminate, as long as it's a physical format, I'm likely to be okay with it as long as it can't have its control hijacked by corporate malfeasants, of which we presently have no shortage.

 

[JediJoker]

That's not what drives the loudness war, it's got more to do with competition and "playlist culture" - if you compile a bunch of songs from different albums or eras into a single playlist, applying dynamic compression ensures the volume stays uniform from track to track.

But now, with loudness normalization across all major streaming platforms, it's decidedly disadvantageous to decrease dynamic range beyond a certain point.

 

[mandrix]

I really hope discs continue to be made, if that's what drives the labels profit machine, so that more music can be released. I just want an alternative, and why I hope to see sites such as IAA continue to grow with lossless immersive offerings in downloadable file formats.

I really like it (on the IAA shop) when Atmos files are offered in both MKV and MP4 because it gives the downloader a choice in playback tools. For example if one is mainly a Foobar user and does not have an Atmos system, or plans to in the future, Foobar can be configured easily to play MP4 files that don't contain video. The MKV files can be played from VLC or PowerDVD and bitstreamed via HDMI connection to the Atmos capable AVR for full on decoding and enjoyment.
Other immersive formats offered in flac from a variety of online sellers, such as "our" very own @Mr. Afternoon can of course be played in almost any software player, although other formats may be offered as well or even discs.

My wish for ISO format is driven basically by the fact that you have an album all rolled up into one file, less likely to be the victim of a missing file when copying between drives, etc., and has the menu built in.

That's all. Hey, I can wish, can't I?

 

[panamac]

Well here's a radical idea. To hell with physical formats altogether. I don't need them!

Just sell me the music in .iso format, whether it be SACD/DVDA/BDA/BDV, as long as it's lossless. Forgo the disc manufacturing for I no longer care. For the price I'm paying, hell, give me at least two formats in .iso format of one of the above listed, give me a key so I can download it for a reasonable period of time just like when I buy software online, sell it to me for a reasonable price, and I will be happy!
OK?
If not that, then MKV with video where possible and format permits.

Attach that unique ID with my name so I can re-download it if something happens. A reasonable amount of time, not a lifetime, you know. Say, 1 year.


I have 2 Oppo's boxed up in the closet, One Samsung as well. I gave one away to my Stepson. I have one Oppo sitting with my audio gear that isn't even plugged into power right now because I hardly ever use it, even though it's jailbroke and I can stream almost anything to it and it will play it.

I play everything from my Windows 11 pc through my AVR via HDMI. PowerDVD, VLC, Foobar. Actually VLC just keeps getting better I don't know if PowerDVD even needed anymore?
My entire surround collection is on my pc. 11 HDD but duplication of smaller formats and HDD's on the shelf with copies of BD's. Much better than the many racks full of surround titles in my living room!

I, too, loved having physical discs. It's proof of our paid efforts, it's something you can hold, look at and treasure.

I now say poof! Don't need it any more. Don't need disc players, expensive or cheap. Don't want to keep ripping discs or building/buying racks.

I'm truly in the digital age at last. Get with the program, Record Companies. & Artists! Everyone else join me if you dare!

...and bless IAA for leading the way!

I read your first sentence & just knew i was going to disagree with your whole rant. I treasure, and keep buying, surround & Atmos discs. But, your writing started to make sense, and created questions for me. If this is the way the market will go, then I'll go with it. I have a win 11 pc, and a Marantz AVR; but i don't even know how to get my multi-channel discs onto my pc. With about 200 DVD-A/SACD/Blu-rays plus another 2100 or so 2-channel redbook discs, is this conversion even feasible? (Note: the only time I connect pc to AVR is to stream Qobuz and i haven't bought a ripper/streamer. I play discs with an Oppo UDP) I'm ready to learn if anyone wants to take the time....

 

[mandrix]

I read your first sentence & just knew i was going to disagree with your whole rant. I treasure, and keep buying, surround & Atmos discs. But, your writing started to make sense, and created questions for me. If this is the way the market will go, then I'll go with it. I have a win 11 pc, and a Marantz AVR; but i don't even know how to get my multi-channel discs onto my pc. With about 200 DVD-A/SACD/Blu-rays plus another 2100 or so 2-channel redbook discs, is this conversion even feasible? (Note: the only time I connect pc to AVR is to stream Qobuz and i haven't bought a ripper/streamer. I play discs with an Oppo UDP) I'm ready to learn if anyone wants to take the time....

lol. Well I started ripping discs early on. I have (I don't know how many actually, I'd have to look at several lists and tally them up). But just my surround DVD, DVDA, SACD, DTS-CD, BD'S are up over 1200 and that's probably a pretty conservative estimate. Every one of them was ripped over the years. All DVD/DVDA/SACD/BD are stored in ISO format. I also have of course downloads in MKV, MP4, M4A, FLAC.
In addition I have many stereo music DVD's of various Jazz performers I've accumulated over the years numbering I guess in the hundreds, as well as stereo SACD's, prolly at least a hundred or so.

I have an Oppo BDP-103 used for ripping SACD. The other discs were ripped using various tools.
As I noted, or may have, I have a large custom pc, it's a Case Labs Merlin with two pedestals, one on top and one on the bottom, the top one holding a mount with 3 HDD racks each capable of holding 4 HDD's, (currently i think with about 11) and I have now 4 SSD's and one Nvme drive. Plus boxed up drives on the shelf full of ripped music BD's.
But all of this could be put in a box and hauled somewhere. My discs in the racks, well that would take some time!

 

[TheGreatRamseythe2nd]

Let SACD die, Blu ray audio or downloads are great for me.

 

[barfle]

Limiting? My brother, I am the happiest and luckiest person alive! I soak up the universe every nano second and take complete and total joy in everything this universe wants to show me. I hope your 75 years have been as good as my 65. That’s what it’s about. Disc! Stream! None of it matters. What matters is what happens when the music enters my ears, complete and utter happiness and a heart that starts to vibrate. My version of life and music. Barfie, enjoy your music, play air guitar, and I toast you. Nothing but love. In any format.

So why did you state that physical media was no longer part of your life? I’m missing something here.

 

[hi-res_edition]

While I generally like the idea of audio files, FLAC, ISO, or otherwise... I have yet to find an integrated application that would show all of the cover art, credits, and lyrics, in an accessible format for blind and vision impaired users. Noted above was to simply include JPG or PNG image files for the artwork, however, neither is an accessible format. Furthermore, while QQ forum readers seem to be brainiacs when it comes to playing music, the vast majority of listeners are clueless, and have little to no understanding about file management, backup, application settings, conversion, etc. This is why I think streaming has become so convenient for the masses, even with its compressed sound. We know the disadvantages of streaming, and for me it is the licensing and library management, the later which fails to me my needs in countless ways. In short, neither files nor streaming fully live up to the conveniences need ed for the broad market, and until these issues are solved, I think physical media will still be with us. Oh, and btw, how would a label create a limited edition when files can be copied so easily?

 

[Mr. Afternoon]

Noted above was to simply include JPG or PNG image files for the artwork, however, neither is an accessible format.

Regarding artwork with digital files, I believe the standard is to embed the artwork into the audio file. Almost all players support embedded art for this reason. The resolution at which to store and display the art is up to the distributor, as with any type of tag. Bandcamp embeds at 700p, while the stuff I send out to places like IAA is usually at least 1400p. Of course, like with normal tags, if the label/artist doesn't put the right info, things go awry!

 

[madscot]

I’m declaring the death of SACD, Blu ray etc. in my life. I discovered Apple spatial, streaming etc a couple of weeks ago. Hey fellow old dudes, it’s the end of the road, time to make way for a new way. So your 150 dollar set with no surround disc, Talking to you Beatles. It is a joke, I don‘t need you or you 300 Mr. Pinky Floyd. Sorry. Thanks though for Animals and the “nice price”.

Good luck streaming albums you love after streaming platforms remove them which happens all the time

 

[Tat]

It's true, neither SACD nor DVD-A, which came out about the same time at the turn of the century, weren't promoted enough. BUT, remember that MP3 files also took off at the same time, and people much preferred downloading free mp3s from Napster to spending big money on high-res players and discs. If the timing were different, these high-res disc formats might have done much better from the outset. So I think the convenience of mp3, coupled with the high cost of high-res entry is what stifled these formats in their infancy. Not to mention that multichannel discs required a lot more speakers and a MC processor. Mp3 only required an Ipod and cheap earbuds, which also allowed you to take your music anywhere.

Fortunately for me, SACD (my favorite format) is still thriving in classical, jazz and blues (my favorite genres).

It's easy to see why streaming music has taken over with technology, however I find it hard to believe that lp's are outselling sacd's. The sacd is more convenient and will sound better on a budget system and you can spend upwards to $40 for an LP today. The fact that I can easily purchase a Taylor Swift Lp in 2023 but can't find a Taylor Swift sacd shows sony always considered sacd's a niche market. Maybe if they released more current artists on stereo/quad discs they could convert some of the younger crowd to this format, but if they haven't by now they probably won't.

 

[Rodriguez59]

Back in 2009 I met one of the developers of SACD, it was a subject he did not want to talk about.
Stereo format I'm not too keen on, japanese CD pressings preferable.

 

[Todd 987]

Good luck streaming albums you love after streaming platforms remove them which happens all the time

Then I’ll play my cd’s until the power gets shut off. Why does everyone want to rain on someone else’s parade? Enjoy your stuff, I’ll enjoy mine. Who cares if they remove the streaming platform. The trivial BS folks want to get hung up about when they know zero about them. Everyone is a critic. Be happy madcot and thanks for predicting my music future. Hell in ten years I won’t be here and the way we are going, maybe nobody else either. So… I’ll enjoy my streaming, cd, SACS, blu ray, dvd, downloads, and all the rest while I wait for the Armageddon of streaming. In the meantime, I will….enjoy the music. Enjoy your day. Me too!

 

[ssully]

An interesting can of worms! I would like to see high quality downloads made available. We do have HDtracks for that model but recent releases are brickwalled!

HDtracks has never been a consistent source of full dynamic range masterings. And DR reduction can be found on HDtracks releases from every era. I recently dowloaded Jeff Beck's Wired (stereo, recorded 1976) from HDtracks at 96/24 and the waveform shows it's quite obviously had some compression added to it, compared to the old CD release (definitely not 'brickwalled' though).

And I know of one definite instance (the Roth era Van Halen HDtracks catalog) where you get different DR depending on which rate you download. For those HDtracks albums, anything below 192/24 download has had compression added.

So it's a crapshoot, as always.

 

[marcb]

I have grown to appreciate SACD for several reasons. When I used my Pioneer Elite DVD player I thought that SACD sounded good but DVD-A sounded better. Then I got the Oppo BDP-103 and listening to SACD in their native DSD format for the first time "WOW" did they sound good. When converted by the player to PCM they sounded perhaps a bit smoother but with much less detail. Some here still don't believe that there's a difference in sound but I came to that conclusion by simply listening. I had the preconceived notion that there would be no difference, so any bias was the other way, in favour of PCM.

The second reason that SACD sounds so good is that usually they do not suffer from the butchering of the loudness wars. They usually have the same DR values as the original LPs. The transfers are done more direct from source to disc.

PCM is handy for enabling digital mixdown and other signal processing but usually DSD is more pure.

That being said some of the absolute best sound seems to be from Blu-ray audio! Sadly now a large number of those are suffering from the same brickwalling effects as regular CDs so often do! Why, Why, Why!!!

You’re conflating format with mastering quality. The two are only loosely correlated (and very loosely at that). There are lots of great SACDs, DVD-As, BD-As, CDs, etc. And there are lots of crappy ones as well.

You simply can’t draw any conclusion about the quality of the mastering of a recording based on the format. Hell, even the mastering of two different hi-rez versions can be different (ex: the 2015 24/192 downloads of Van Halen’s catalog are great while the 2015 24/96 stink).

You’re also assuming every piece of eqpt not only processes different formats and codecs equally, but that every piece of eqpt is equal. Neither is true. A particular player may have a DAC which converts PCM better than DSD or vice versa. Comparing findings of two different formats (PCM vs DSD) on two different players (Pioneer vs Oppo) only increases the apples and oranges nature of your comparisons.