SACD's Survival

[marcb]

HDtracks has never been a consistent source of full dynamic range masterings. And DR reduction can be found on HDtracks releases from every era. I recently dowloaded Jeff Beck's Wired (stereo, recorded 1976) from HDtracks at 96/24 and the waveform shows it's quite obviously had some compression added to it, compared to the old CD release (definitely not 'brickwalled' though).

And I know of one definite instance (the Roth era Van Halen HDtracks catalog) where you get different DR depending on which rate you download. For those HDtracks albums, anything below 192/24 download has had compression added.

So it's a crapshoot, as always.

Ha, I didn’t see your post until after I posted. How weird that we would use the same Van Halen example!

 

[Methuselah’s Grandpa]

Many of my favorite artists have never released any of their studio albums in lossless surround sound. Perhaps it was the cost of manufacturing the BD/DVDA/SACD that influenced this, …I don’t know but if that has been the reason, maybe that can change if more people support paying for downloading lossless surround albums.

I like the idea from Boondocks for a downloadable ISO.
Like many or maybe even most people reading this, I transfer all of my media to digital storage on hard drives, …all my music, DVDs, BluRays, 4K-UHDs, …everything; so I would be fine with downloading everything, as long as it is lossless.

With the bandwidth & storage capacity available to most consumers, there’s no excuse in my opinion to not offer surround-sound in a downloadable lossless format. They could even market it as a greener, more environmentally friendly way to buy these MCH albums.

 

[par4ken]

I stand 100% by my words. Yes there are exceptions but in general terms most often SACDs are just mastered better! I've only ever come across a SACD box set (Yes) from Japan that was brickwalled. Thankfully I didn't buy it. I "illegally" downloaded a couple of isos just to check them out and then quickly deleted them!

While DSD can be converted to PCM but it is best to keep them as is! I don't see how the comparison of different players and formats is in anyway invalid! Both of my examples serve to illustrate the same point!

All other formats are largely brickwalled. DVD-audio, Alanis Morissette and Foreigner come to mind. Blu-rays, the expensive Band sets are all brickwalled. The multis are much less damaged than the stereo but are not totally free from the butchering!

There are some good sounding CDs, the early releases were good, those from MFSL and AF were good as were the DCC Compact Classics. Some rerelease labels like Prog Temple and Cherry Red release good sounding CDs that are not brickwalled. Over the years the mastering of most CDs has gotten terrible, of course there are always exceptions!

HDtracks had good sounding releases in the beginning. Now most are terrible, I understand that is how they are received from the record companies. So it's not HDtracks that's messing them up! Very strange that the two Van Halen's would be of different masterings, they should be the same! That makes me wonder if the 24/96 was deliberately mastered to sound worse than the 24/192 so as to justify the higher cost of the 24/192!

​

 

[panamac]

lol. Well I started ripping discs early on. I have (I don't know how many actually, I'd have to look at several lists and tally them up). But just my surround DVD, DVDA, SACD, DTS-CD, BD'S are up over 1200 and that's probably a pretty conservative estimate. Every one of them was ripped over the years. All DVD/DVDA/SACD/BD are stored in ISO format. I also have of course downloads in MKV, MP4, M4A, FLAC.
In addition I have many stereo music DVD's of various Jazz performers I've accumulated over the years numbering I guess in the hundreds, as well as stereo SACD's, prolly at least a hundred or so.

I have an Oppo BDP-103 used for ripping SACD. The other discs were ripped using various tools.
As I noted, or may have, I have a large custom pc, it's a Case Labs Merlin with two pedestals, one on top and one on the bottom, the top one holding a mount with 3 HDD racks each capable of holding 4 HDD's, (currently i think with about 11) and I have now 4 SSD's and one Nvme drive. Plus boxed up drives on the shelf full of ripped music BD's.
But all of this could be put in a box and hauled somewhere. My discs in the racks, well that would take some time!

You are waaaaay beyond me in knowledge and equipment for ripping multi-channel. Can I add software to my basic HP pc that will allow me to rip SACD and DVD-A from my Oppo BDP, without building pedestals? (whatever they are!??)

 

[hi-res_edition]

Regarding artwork with digital files, I believe the standard is to embed the artwork into the audio file. Almost all players support embedded art for this reason. The resolution at which to store and display the art is up to the distributor, as with any type of tag. Bandcamp embeds at 700p, while the stuff I send out to places like IAA is usually at least 1400p. Of course, like with normal tags, if the label/artist doesn't put the right info, things go awry!

Sure, that is the cover art, of which btw BandCamp resizes to 700x700px. What about the pages and pages found in a booklet? And still, the embedding of a JPG or PNG is not accessible, as a blind person can't see the cover. There is no ability that I am aware of to include a 'description' that can be read out loud f by text to speech readers. The unified technology simply doesn't exist for including all of the artwork, at least not that I am aware of. Think about it, one should be able to open an album, start playing its tracks, and also thumb through the cover, lyrics pages, credits, photos, etc. directly from the app. I have yet to see this. That is why physical media still rules IMO. It is a complete product.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

You are waaaaay beyond me in knowledge and equipment for ripping multi-channel. Can I add software to my basic HP pc that will allow me to rip SACD and DVD-A from my Oppo BDP, without building pedestals? (whatever they are!??)

Sure. Start here: https://usermanual.wiki/m/dce9d7594226c5856dcca7d817e7866632b3e474eb95be69736c7d0782b6c0e6.pdf and Sonore - ISO2DSD - converts ISO files to DSD.

 

[mandrix]

Sure, that is the cover art, of which btw BandCamp resizes to 700x700px. What about the pages and pages found in a booklet? And still, the embedding of a JPG or PNG is not accessible, as a blind person can't see the cover. There is no ability that I am aware of to include a 'description' that can be read out loud f by text to speech readers. The unified technology simply doesn't exist for including all of the artwork, at least not that I am aware of. Think about it, one should be able to open an album, start playing its tracks, and also thumb through the cover, lyrics pages, credits, photos, etc. directly from the app. I have yet to see this. That is why physical media still rules IMO. It is a complete product.

What's wrong with full sized pics? I mean pretty much everyone has a computer. I scan cover art often @300 dpi or larger and include it in storage with my files.
But look, I'm not trying to force my ideas on anyone. You can do as you like, obviously.

 

[mandrix]

While I generally like the idea of audio files, FLAC, ISO, or otherwise... I have yet to find an integrated application that would show all of the cover art, credits, and lyrics, in an accessible format for blind and vision impaired users. Noted above was to simply include JPG or PNG image files for the artwork, however, neither is an accessible format. Furthermore, while QQ forum readers seem to be brainiacs when it comes to playing music, the vast majority of listeners are clueless, and have little to no understanding about file management, backup, application settings, conversion, etc. This is why I think streaming has become so convenient for the masses, even with its compressed sound. We know the disadvantages of streaming, and for me it is the licensing and library management, the later which fails to me my needs in countless ways. In short, neither files nor streaming fully live up to the conveniences need ed for the broad market, and until these issues are solved, I think physical media will still be with us. Oh, and btw, how would a label create a limited edition when files can be copied so easily?

....and yet everyone and his kids can do stuff on phones that boggles my mind while on a pc many things are just mundane to me. It's just what you want to learn, is all.
As for blind and vision impaired users, explain to me how physical pictures are better than digital? Not arguing the point, asking for enlightenment.

 

[barfle]

Regarding artwork with digital files, I believe the standard is to embed the artwork into the audio file. Almost all players support embedded art for this reason. The resolution at which to store and display the art is up to the distributor, as with any type of tag. Bandcamp embeds at 700p, while the stuff I send out to places like IAA is usually at least 1400p. Of course, like with normal tags, if the label/artist doesn't put the right info, things go awry!

I was recently informed that my Oppo would show cover art for files without it embedded if there is a “folder.jpg” file in the folder with the music files.

When I rip CDs, I usually scan the cover and embed the art with goldwave, but that doesn’t work with DSD.

 

[barfle]

It recently occurred to me that a lower quality sound can be preferable to a higher quality one.

Case in point - a top 40 AM radio station in Los Angeles (KHJ) had an FM station, and the owners (RKO) ran into legal trouble and had to go out of business. KHJ-FM became KRTH and played oldies, often in stereo. I don’t remember what KHJ-AM did for several years, but at some point, they became KRTH-AM, and advertised that they were playing the oldies rock playlist so they sounded like they did in KHJ. And it was true! Unfortunately, the AM experiment didn’t work, and one day I tuned in and it was a Spanish rap station.

KRTH also went from oldies to “classic rock” but had an HD2 stream that continued with their oldies format, until one day they were Disney. But, man, the nostalgic sound of that AM station was amazing!

 

[ssully]

I was recently informed that my Oppo would show cover art for files without it embedded if there is a “folder.jpg” file in the folder with the music files.

FYI, foobar2k and (I think) other music file player software have supported this option for years. (As well as supporting embedded art) It's the method I've always used.

 

[Mr. Afternoon]

I was recently informed that my Oppo would show cover art for files without it embedded if there is a “folder.jpg” file in the folder with the music files.

When I rip CDs, I usually scan the cover and embed the art with goldwave, but that doesn’t work with DSD.

My DSD files work fine with embedded art, both DSF and WV formats. I don't have an OPPO though. I use MP3Tag for tagging all files, if that helps.

 

[madscot]

I didn’t realise how old I was getting until I read this thread, I have no idea what folks are talking about lol

 

[mkt]

Beats sudoku.

 

[mandrix]

Beats sudoku.

Watching paint dry beats soduku.

 

[mandrix]

My DSD files work fine with embedded art, both DSF and WV formats. I don't have an OPPO though. I use MP3Tag for tagging all files, if that helps.

MP3Tag I was using...MMH (Music Media Helper) available here on QQ uses MusicBrainz to tag, works pretty good....I sometimes use Foobar with the MusicBrainz or Discogs components for tagging as well.. I'm just a versatile kinda guy.

 

[barfle]

Beats sudoku.

Addicted to sudoku.

 

[mandrix]

Addicted to sudoku.

I was quite sure I'd get a rise out of someone. It was tongue-in-cheek.

 

[hi-res_edition]

What's wrong with full sized pics? I mean pretty much everyone has a computer. I scan cover art often @300 dpi or larger and include it in storage with my files.
But look, I'm not trying to force my ideas on anyone. You can do as you like, obviously.

Umm... when one is blind they can't see the pictures, no matter the size ... and more to the point read the text that may accompany the multiple pages of lyrics and credits. Thus these need to be available in an accessible format where a text to speech reader can actually read the text. Plus, image tagging to describe what a sighted person would see is also needed.

I also use large images, but what I am trying to convey is if the SACD or other physical formats get dropped, we need a way to view these "booklets" in an accessible format, as well as a 'universal' format. It is not just about playing the music - if it all goes digital, the booklet that accompanies any media must be considered. I have seen a few artists and labels include a PDF version of the booklet, which may or may not work in an accessible format for reasons I don't fully understand. But, imagine if you will, inside the app that you are using, one cliscks on the cover and it opens the booklet, available to both see described / read out loud for blind users.. The technology exists for this today - but no universal format exists to make this happen. So, instead cover art and the associated booklet pages are made available in a variety of formats and sizes, or not even made available depending on the site one downloads the files from!

 

[mandrix]

Umm... when one is blind they can't see the pictures, no matter the size ... and more to the point read the text that may accompany the multiple pages of lyrics and credits. Thus these need to be available in an accessible format where a text to speech reader can actually read the text. Plus, image tagging to describe what a sighted person would see is also needed.

I also use large images, but what I am trying to convey is if the SACD or other physical formats get dropped, we need a way to view these "booklets" in an accessible format, as well as a 'universal' format. It is not just about playing the music - if it all goes digital, the booklet that accompanies any media must be considered. I have seen a few artists and labels include a PDF version of the booklet, which may or may not work in an accessible format for reasons I don't fully understand. But, imagine if you will, inside the app that you are using, one cliscks on the cover and it opens the booklet, available to both see described / read out loud for blind users.. The technology exists for this today - but no universal format exists to make this happen. So, instead cover art and the associated booklet pages are made available in a variety of formats and sizes, or not even made available depending on the site one downloads the files from!

OK I'm not unsympathetic to vision impaired people, since my eyesight is worse every year, but I am not comfortable discussing what I don't know about.
So I will bow out of this conversation.