Santana Lotus: Complete Edition in SACD Surround Sound and DSD 256 Stereo Download

[4-earredwonder]

Too bad fans who have a good reason to appreciate both, are asked to not only buy it twice...but at premium prices: the very fans whose support of the album (despite Columbia never even releasing it in the US during the albums' heyday...which means, these fans had to pay an escalated premium price for it from the get-go!) made this release the legendary triumph it was for the label.

So, that's three times they want us to empty our wallets to an extraordinary degree. Pretty-much making us pay the "penalty" for their inability to trust the domestic marketplace to appreciate such a stellar package (but no, I'm not going to insinuate they gave us Moonflower as a "bait-&-switch"...although you could make a rational case for it).

But for me, the most egregious part about this is making the statement in the marketplace that, if you want to support a superior product, we're gonna make you pay through the nose, callously assuming enough hard-core fans will make up for the fans who can't afford these jacked-up prices. EMI gives us 25 years of one of the crappiest masters on the CD shelves in Aqualung, and to "make up for it", we can finally hear it done proper, as long as we pay $150 for a boxfull of crap we didn't ask for. So they led the way, and Sony picked up the torch. I'm a rabid fan, so apparently, I deserve to get soaked for caring so much.

I'm NOT defending SONY Japan, dillydipper, but Japanese products have always been MORE expensive than in other parts of the world. Remember, the SONY Japan Jeff Beck reissues were initially $50 EACH + s/h from Japan when they were first announced. And unfortunately, I did buy the AF LOTUS 2 SACD set and now (if it's DISCRETE, ONLY) will I spring for the $70 Japanese import (which does consist of 3 SACDs plus the 'Fancy schmancy' packaging.

NOBODY ever said this surround hobby was cheap. I've always been railing against the high price of reissued hi res music in deference to the ridiculously cheap prices of Blue Ray discs which are essentially two different divisions of the same mega conglomerates. And of course the "limited edition status" of all these high res reissues makes it almost imperative to pull the trigger upon release or else risk paying even more when the initial supply runs out (called eBay gouging).

 

[fredblue]

The BIG question: With the Surround Master, is the SQ vinyl of LOTUS discrete?

Nothing is discrete with SQ. Do you mean "is it an active or ambient surround mix?"

 

[4-earredwonder]

Nothing is discrete with SQ. Do you mean "is it an active or ambient surround mix?"

DUH, Adam you KNOW what I mean? IS IT ACTIVE?

BTW, when are you going to see the Motown show?

 

[fredblue]

DUH, Adam you KNOW what I mean? IS IT ACTIVE?

BTW, when are you going to see the Motown show?

if I could read your mind, Ralph..

I didn't think Lotus had that great a surround mix when decoded by the SM tbh.. but it's SQ.. so really (and you know I have come to rather like SQ, warts and all, so I'm not bashing it out of hand just because it's SQ) it is anybody's guess as to how it's actually supposed to sound in discrete 4-channel form.. it appears that Sony Japan's purporting to deliver this Quad live album with 4 x distinct discrete channels of sound for the first time with this set, so at last we can hear it as intended, free from the limitations of the SQ matrix encode/decode process, which will be interesting if nothing else.

already been to the Motown Musical, Weds night. I wanted to see it and I would have done so at some stage no matter what.. I'm glad I did, even if just to satisfy curiosity etc.. but did come away somewhat unfulfilled, to put it kindly. as my mate Rich who went with me said; "you're a tough crowd, you know that music so well, you're bound to judge it more harshly than me". He was right, he enjoyed it more than I did.. if I was to be somewhat unkind, well, it was borderline rubbish.. still the songs stood up even in that rather mindless "jukebox" musical setting and much of what they performed on that stage I would say amounted to solid if unspectacular renditions of stone cold classics.

 

[fizzywiggs41]

I don't think most people should feel "duped" with the purchase of the SQ QUAD SACD.
It is a very good performance for a matrix quad and live disc set, presented in Hi-rez and now you can obtain (with bonus material) the Discrete SACD QUAD.
Two formats are better than one, in my collector's opinion. :upthumb

 

[Q8]

if I could read your mind, Ralph..

I didn't think Lotus had that great a surround mix when decoded by the SM tbh.. but it's SQ.. so really (and you know I have come to rather like SQ, warts and all, so I'm not bashing it out of hand just because it's SQ) it is anybody's guess as to how it's actually supposed to sound in discrete 4-channel form.. it appears that Sony Japan's purporting to deliver this Quad live album with 4 x distinct discrete channels of sound for the first time with this set, so at last we can hear it as intended, free from the limitations of the SQ matrix encode/decode process, which will be interesting if nothing else.

already been to the Motown Musical, Weds night. I wanted to see it and I would have done so at some stage no matter what.. I'm glad I did, even if just to satisfy curiosity etc.. but did come away somewhat unfulfilled, to put it kindly. as my mate Rich who went with me said; "you're a tough crowd, you know that music so well, you're bound to judge it more harshly than me". He was right, he enjoyed it more than I did.. if I was to be somewhat unkind, well, it was borderline rubbish.. still the songs stood up even in that rather mindless "jukebox" musical setting and much of what they performed on that stage I would say amounted to solid if unspectacular renditions of stone cold classics.

It's not extremely active but the mix is spread out nicely. There is a good amount of separation. It's kind of laid back, like a lot of the music in the show.

 

[fredblue]

It's not extremely active but the mix is spread out nicely. There is a good amount of separation. It's kind of laid back, like a lot of the music in the show.

true.. it befits the vibe of the performance (iirc I said something pretty much along those lines in another QQ thread when Ralph asked how the Lotus SQ panned out when decoded by the Surround Master) I was just kinda underwhelmed at the time I guess, as I'd set about decoding Lotus hot on the heels of a number of more actively mixed Quads that had decoded well thru the Surround Master from SQ/QS records.. anyway we should soon be able to hear the Lotus Quad mix as the engineers intended in all its 4-ch splendour, it'll be interesting to hear it that way for sure

 

[4-earredwonder]

true.. it befits the vibe of the performance (iirc I said something pretty much along those lines in another QQ thread when Ralph asked how the Lotus SQ panned out when decoded by the Surround Master) I was just kinda underwhelmed at the time I guess, as I'd set about decoding Lotus hot on the heels of a number of more actively mixed Quads that had decoded well thru the Surround Master from SQ/QS records.. anyway we should soon be able to hear the Lotus Quad mix as the engineers intended in all its 4-ch splendour, it'll be interesting to hear it that way for sure

Well, ALL, it WAS recorded during the "Golden Age of Quadraphonic Sound" by supposedly a VERY capable Japanese recording engineer so I can only hope to expect some stunning surprises. As we all know (or should by now) even those older RCA discrete CD~4 Dutton Vocalion SACD reissues sound remarkably better than even those CD~4 demodulators of the time could only 'hint' at.

But of course the glaring question remains.......will SONY Japan reissue ALL of the Santana QUADS in this fashion? There are in total about 14 of them.....or something in that ballpark figure!

 

[rustyandi]

I pulled out my
Santana SQ Lotus LPs
And played them the first in a long time
A thing that I have not said before that I believe is
that the room should be as Dead as you can make it
as well as all speakers the same
The surround sound is a blur it may as well be a stereo lp
Very disappointing the same for a CD of it
I played it through The Audionics and Surround master
With a needle and the Laser T/Table
The SACD Multi has to be better it could not be much worse

 

[fredblue]

Well, ALL, it WAS recorded during the "Golden Age of Quadraphonic Sound" by supposedly a VERY capable Japanese recording engineer so I can only hope to expect some stunning surprises. As we all know (or should by now) even those older RCA discrete CD~4 Dutton Vocalion SACD reissues sound remarkably better than even those CD~4 demodulators of the time could only 'hint' at.

But of course the glaring question remains.......will SONY Japan reissue ALL of the Santana QUADS in this fashion? There are in total about 14 of them.....or something in that ballpark figure!

hmm.. wouldn't you say there were a fair few sub par mixes in the golden age of Quad, Ralph?
anyway, time will tell if Lotus really is an active Quad stymied by SQ or an ambient mix helped by SQ's phase shifting weirdness! @:

The best possible outcome of this set happening, for me, would be that it does the business and Sony Japan repeat what they did with Jeff Beck and work their way through releasing all Santana Quads on Surround SACD, even the really head-scratching Quads (Amigos & Festival).. but even if they choose not to go that far I hope they would rerelease the top-tier Santana Quads (1st album, III, Caravanserai, Welcome, Borboletta, Love Devotion Surrender w/Mahavishnu Orch.)

 

[winopener]

hmm.. wouldn't you say there were a fair few sub par mixes in the golden age of Quad, Ralph?
anyway, time will tell if Lotus really is an active Quad stymied by SQ or an ambient mix helped by SQ's phase shifting weirdness! @:

The best possible outcome of this set happening, for me, would be that it does the business and Sony Japan repeat what they did with Jeff Beck and work their way through releasing all Santana Quads on Surround SACD, even the really head-scratching Quads (Amigos & Festival).. but even if they choose not to go that far I hope they would rerelease the top-tier Santana Quads (1st album, III, Caravanserai, Welcome, Borboletta, Love Devotion Surrender w/Mahavishnu Orch.)

I can't say anything about Amigos since i haven't heard a discrete version (Sq-only release) but i have the Festival Q8 and is the worst sucky quad ever released from Columbia. This does need a true quad remix, period, otherwise even a modest Circle Surround decoder can do a lot better from the stereo CD than the real discrete quad.

 

[4-earredwonder]

I can't say anything about Amigos since i haven't heard a discrete version (Sq-only release) but i have the Festival Q8 and is the worst sucky quad ever released from Columbia. This does need a true quad remix, period, otherwise even a modest Circle Surround decoder can do a lot better from the stereo CD than the real discrete quad.

I would surmise that the biggest problem with the Columbia/SQ system was (1) the Encoders; (2) The Decoders and (3) The Vinyl of the period. I was listening to AF's The Collection tonight at a very high volume (78db) with a +5 bass boost on my Meridian pre/pro and the separation was fantastic left to right and front to rear.

Most of the mixers at the time were adventuresome and probably took risks that more modern mixers [like S Wilson/E Scheiner] would later 'refine.' Not until I took possession of my TEAC QUAD OR did I finally get to hear what was on those master tapes and when Dolby b was added...wallah!

I was under the impression that the Surround Master was state of the art but from what fredblue has posted it probably is but compared to AF and Dutton Vocalion's CBS/RCA QUAD SACD reissues..........probably NOT SOTA, enough!

TIME to clear out those musty Quad vaults, BIG BOYS. We finally DO have the technology to replicate those masters faithfully so let the reissue companies do their job and stop busting their balls with unrealistic licensing fees and a quagmire of paperwork!

 

[kap'n krunch]

I would surmise that the biggest problem with the Columbia/SQ system was (1) the Encoders; (2) The Decoders and (3) The Vinyl of the period. I was listening to AF's The Collection tonight at a very high volume (78db) with a +5 bass boost on my Meridian pre/pro and the separation was fantastic left to right and front to rear.

Most of the mixers at the time were adventuresome and probably took risks that more modern mixers [like S Wilson/E Scheiner] would later 'refine.' Not until I took possession of my TEAC QUAD OR did I finally get to hear what was on those master tapes and when Dolby b was added...wallah!

I was under the impression that the Surround Master was state of the art but from what fredblue has posted it probably is but compared to AF and Dutton Vocalion's CBS/RCA QUAD SACD reissues..........probably NOT SOTA, enough!

TIME to clear out those musty Quad vaults, BIG BOYS. We finally DO have the technology to replicate those masters faithfully so let the reissue companies do their job and stop busting their balls with unrealistic licensing fees and a quagmire of paperwork!

Cool...but how were you decoding it?

 

[fredblue]

some weirdness that I don't remember if I ever updated QQ about was that both Santana/Amigos & Herbie Hancock/Secrets (two Quads both mixed by Fred Catero) seemed to decode better and with less clangy reverb via the Surround Master's QS/Involve mode than thru its' SQ decoding mode.. hmm.. maybe indicative of nothing but just thought I'd mention it in passing out, I mean passing thru :friday:

 

[fredblue]

I would surmise that the biggest problem with the Columbia/SQ system was (1) the Encoders; (2) The Decoders and (3) The Vinyl of the period. I was listening to AF's The Collection tonight at a very high volume (78db) with a +5 bass boost on my Meridian pre/pro and the separation was fantastic left to right and front to rear.

Most of the mixers at the time were adventuresome and probably took risks that more modern mixers [like S Wilson/E Scheiner] would later 'refine.' Not until I took possession of my TEAC QUAD OR did I finally get to hear what was on those master tapes and when Dolby b was added...wallah!

I was under the impression that the Surround Master was state of the art but from what fredblue has posted it probably is but compared to AF and Dutton Vocalion's CBS/RCA QUAD SACD reissues..........probably NOT SOTA, enough!

TIME to clear out those musty Quad vaults, BIG BOYS. We finally DO have the technology to replicate those masters faithfully so let the reissue companies do their job and stop busting their balls with unrealistic licensing fees and a quagmire of paperwork!

well I don't think it would be totally off the charts to describe the Surround Master as pretty much state of the art at this point (many here who know their onions and have been at this Quad game before I was born, have said it compares favourably to the Tate etc,. and let's face it, Involve's Surround Master is the only QS/SQ decoder you can buy brand spanking New -- in 2017!! -- :yikes ..so even if it was a total pile of crud - which it isn't - it would be impressive for that if nothing else and its really a great little piece of kit, it can be create a really engaging and exciting surround sound sensation.. imho!) I'd say its maybe more its SQ/QS and those encode/decode issues of the time and how much separation you can extract with the stylus/cart etc., plus the quality of vinyl etc that you cite that are, I think, a big part of the limitations of how these records pan out when decoded.. maybe

 

[winopener]

Most of the mixers at the time were adventuresome and probably took risks that more modern mixers [like S Wilson/E Scheiner] would later 'refine.' Not until I took possession of my TEAC QUAD OR did I finally get to hear what was on those master tapes and when Dolby b was added...wallah!

Let me say it clear: Festival quad is a double-stereo with different EQ for front and rear. There's nothing real quad going on. That's why i said it does need a remix: it's not a question of encoding/decoding, it's possible to argue for long about the fidelity of a quad 8 track but in any case it is a discrete media, and the quad presentation sucks big time.

And Festival is an album that i really love and it does have a crazy potential for a full-immersion quad as the older Santana titles. Simply it has yet to come. Can you imagine the sonic blast you can have from the initial trio C/LTCP/J?

 

[Scott65]

Snood lub CD Japan :bounce - Preordered

Me too! one of the many things I love about this forum - info on upcoming releases :51banana:

 

[Scott65]

well I don't think it would be totally off the charts to describe the Surround Master as pretty much state of the art at this point (many here who know their onions and have been at this Quad game before I was born, have said it compares favourably to the Tate etc,. and let's face it, Involve's Surround Master is the only QS/SQ decoder you can buy brand spanking New -- in 2017!! -- :yikes ..so even if it was a total pile of crud - which it isn't - it would be impressive for that if nothing else and its really a great little piece of kit, it can be create a really engaging and exciting surround sound sensation.. imho!) I'd say its maybe more its SQ/QS and those encode/decode issues of the time and how much separation you can extract with the stylus/cart etc., plus the quality of vinyl etc that you cite that are, I think, a big part of the limitations of how these records pan out when decoded.. maybe

I don't have any vintage quad equipment or recordings (other than rereleases on SACD and Blu-Ray) but I have played a lot of CDs through the surround master and I love it! At the moment I'm listening to the Beatles through it and enjoying it big time. :banana:

 

[Which_One_Is_Pink]

Got my order in, with my points redeemed it was under $68 shipped. While I would rather have the studio Quads this will do in a pinch. I have a web conversion of this and like it well enough to spin it every now and then but here is hoping that SonyJapan can bring some of the magic they did with the Jeff Beck Quads and make this shine a little more.

 

[Simon A]

Press release from Sony Japan including complete track listing.