Steven Wilson Steven Wilson - The Harmony Codex (2023)

[DrKlahn]

The system Wilson did his first listening events on had 12 ceiling speakers. Atmos and DTS:X can be coded with a set channel layout (generally 4) or, as is more common, let the sound be object based. In the latter scenario the processor can theoretically support whatever speaker configuration there is. Wherever the object moves in the room the processor will channel the sound to the appropriate speakers.

So, in the case of ceiling speakers, 4 is an ideal minimum since certain mixing is coded specifically for it and these mixes unfortunately won't play on additional ceiling speakers unless the processor is capable of upmixing it. But unlike base channels you don't really have to try to squeeze in more than 4 ceiling channels since there isn't discrete material trying to be folded into other channels like we run into with the base channels. The use case for more than 4 is for rooms large enough to need it.

 

[sjcorne]

If you place anything halfway between the front & rear ceiling speakers, it’ll come out of those “top middles” in a .6 setup. A good example of this are the strings in the song “Valentine’s Day” from ABC’s The Lexicon Of Love.

 

[mandrix]

If you place anything halfway between the front & rear ceiling speakers, it’ll come out of those “top middles” in a .6 setup. A good example of this are the strings in the song “Valentine’s Day” from ABC’s The Lexicon Of Love.

Thanks for verifying that.
My AVR is not .6 capable but I know that some here have units that have that capability.

 

[DrKlahn]

Not to derail the thread, but I have read where people will take a couple of old ProLogic processors, split off the 4 Atmos channels (preamp outs), run the second set into a stereo pair input on the ProLogic unit, and finally use the "center" output for the middle ceiling channel. I guess it works OK and expands the setup to 6 cheaply. It obviously won't be as good as native 6ch capability. Unless the room is really big enough to need it, 4 will cover the majority of use cases.

 

[thebarnman]

Thanks @thebarnman . It makes me wonder how much content IS mixed for 9.1.6, given that more AVR's are coming out with >11 channel processing. I think you're saying his monitoring/studio setup is .4 but that would not necessarily prevent him from mixing for more channels. IDK.

Of course 11 channel processing is just enough for 3 front, (Left Center Right) 4 rear (two surround, two back) and 4 Atmos speakers = 11. Anyone can add additional amps and add two more speakers but I think that would mostly be for movie Atmos mixes.

He could mix for more but he said he mixes for four Atmos. I don't know if he would want to act as if there's 6 Atmos since he really can't hear what's going on in those other two Atmos speakers he'd be blindly mixing for.

 

[mandrix]

Of course 11 channel processing is just enough for 3 front, (Left Center Right) 4 rear (two surround, two back) and 4 Atmos speakers = 11. Anyone can add additional amps and add two more speakers but I think that would mostly be for movie Atmos mixes.

He could mix for more but he said he mixes for four Atmos. I don't know if he would want to act as if there's 6 Atmos since he really can't hear what's going on in those other two Atmos speakers he'd be blindly mixing for.

Yes, but refer to post 562? Whether anyone would want to place objects where they can't actively monitor them....well IDK but if you're as good as Wilson, maybe?

And I would argue, (on the consumer side) in that you can only add more amps and speakers for Atmos if you have the pre-processing. e.g. my AVR amplifies 9 channels but processes 11, so I pre out to a separate amp for two channels.

Pretty sure you know that, you're a smart guy, but I'm low on internet points. (J/K!)
I find a 7.1.4 setup ideal for many Atmos music mixes personally. Not really a movie guy so much. I went from 5.1 > 5.1.2 > 7.1.4 and if I could win the lotto I'd have a large, large, room and as many freaking speakers as possible. lol! Then maybe a huge screen and, and....
But we all have our druthers and wants.

 

[thebarnman]

If you place anything halfway between the front & rear ceiling speakers, it’ll come out of those “top middles” in a .6 setup. A good example of this are the strings in the song “Valentine’s Day” from ABC’s The Lexicon Of Love.

In that case is it mixed for .6 or is that the effect you get because of a up-mixing effect?

In my setup the top middles would be the ones above and somewhat in front of me but not all the way towards the front upper part of the room. I was told if I upgraded to .6, no other speakers would need to be moved...they would just add two more closer to the front of the room and at the correct angles above for the correct effect.

So in my case in what you describe if only the two above middle are on...as you can see in my system (even if I had six Atmos speakers) it would sound high and a bit in front because those two Atmos speakers are above and somewhat in front, but not directly above So if music is mixed with 6 Atmos speakers in mind then I wonder who hears it as intended by the mixer? Are the strings really suppose to be directly above your head?

Currently the only way something sounds directly over my head is if all four Atmos speakers are all playing the same thing all at the same time. I know that works because I've heard it that way in a few movies where the sound is directly overhead.

 

[thebarnman]

And I would argue, (on the consumer side) in that you can only add more amps and speakers for Atmos if you have the pre-processing. e.g. my AVR amplifies 9 channels but processes 11, so I pre out to a separate amp for two channels.

That's correct. In my setup, I have a separate power amp for the three main speakers in front and I let the receiver handle the surrounds (the subs are self powered.) That way the receiver doesn't have to work as hard.

If I add two more speakers, I already have two more channels or amplification but I don't have the processing for those two additional Atmos speakers. In my case obviously I would have to get a completely new processor. (The guys at the audio shop are talking me into it!)

Certainly what we are talking about here is the difference of Atmos music being mixed for 4 Atmos speakers vs 6 Atmos speakers. I don't know if there is a standard for Atmos music only Blu-rays. I can only repeat what I heard Steven Wilson talk about when it comes to the equipment he uses for Atmos mixes.

Pretty sure you know that, you're a smart guy, but I'm low on internet points. (J/K!)
I find a 7.1.4 setup ideal for many Atmos music mixes personally. Not really a movie guy so much. I went from 5.1 > 5.1.2 > 7.1.4 and if I could win the lotto I'd have a large, large, room and as many freaking speakers as possible. lol! Then maybe a huge screen and, and....
But we all have our druthers and wants.

 

[thebarnman]

I'd like to add one more thing. Information from a different forum about mixing music audio for Atmos.

"It depends entirely on whether the sound mixer sets them up as bed objects (static) or active objects or a combination of the two.
They can monitor the mix on a 5.1.4 or 7.1.4 studio, but if they put in active objects, it will use all 24.1.10 speaker positions as appropriate."

Again Steven Wilson said he mixes with four Atmos speakers but I have no idea if he puts them as bed objects (static) or active objects (using all 24.1.10 speaker positions.)

That's a answer for another day!

 

[mandrix]

I'd like to add one more thing. Information from a different forum about mixing music audio for Atmos.

"It depends entirely on whether the sound mixer sets them up as bed objects (static) or active objects or a combination of the two.
They can monitor the mix on a 5.1.4 or 7.1.4 studio, but if they put in active objects, it will use all 24.1.10 speaker positions as appropriate."

Again Steven Wilson said he mixes with four Atmos speakers but I have no idea if he puts them as bed objects (static) or active objects (using all 24.1.10 speaker positions.)

That's a answer for another day!

Well Sir all I can tell you is I'm currently on my older 5.1.2 AVR because my RZ50 is in the shop...so currently no 7.1.4. I miss the 7.1.4 greatly. I find a lot of well mixed Atmos titles make great use of the side surrounds, or whatever parlance you wish to use to describe them. I miss them almost as much as the two overhead speakers I'm currently lacking due to the older AVR's shortcomings.

I'm only using the pre outs for the side surrounds at present on the 7.1.4 AVR. Since I have that older analog input 5.1 AVR I may at some point try different combo's. Thankfully I was eventually able to find a remote for the old boy from one of those Chinese companies that still make them for older AVR's, so at least I don't have to move to change the volumes on either of the units.

I'm also starting to wish I had bought a pre/pro instead of newer AVR, since apparently HDMI boards are on backorder. Probably get a B stock replacement instead.

 

[thebarnman]

Well Sir all I can tell you is I'm currently on my older 5.1.2 AVR because my RZ50 is in the shop...so currently no 7.1.4. I miss the 7.1.4 greatly. I find a lot of well mixed Atmos titles make great use of the side surrounds, or whatever parlance you wish to use to describe them. I miss them almost as much as the two overhead speakers I'm currently lacking due to the older AVR's shortcomings.

I'm only using the pre outs for the side surrounds at present on the 7.1.4 AVR. Since I have that older analog input 5.1 AVR I may at some point try different combo's. Thankfully I was eventually able to find a remote for the old boy from one of those Chinese companies that still make them for older AVR's, so at least I don't have to move to change the volumes on either of the units.

I'm also starting to wish I had bought a pre/pro instead of newer AVR, since apparently HDMI boards are on backorder. Probably get a B stock replacement instead.

HDMI boards on back-order? Does that have something to do with the chip shortage?

Side surrounds? Maybe I misunderstand...I would do what I could to at least get a good four Atmos system going first before doing anything else. I know I'm probably missing something but trying to figure out what your doing now or in the future vs older and newer receiver and all the different setups.

 

[HomerJAU]

In that case is it mixed for .6 or is that the effect you get because of a up-mixing effect?

Atmos objects are defined at a position in 3D space. During playback the objects are recreated at the defined positions. It’s a function of the Atmos decoder and the users speaker layout defined in their decoder/AVR setup.

If an object’s sound was defined to be directly above the user and the user has 4 ceiling speakers then the sound would be sent to all 4 ceiling speakers ensuring the phantom speaker location appears directly above the listener.

 

[mandrix]

HDMI boards on back-order? Does that have something to do with the chip shortage?

Side surrounds? Maybe I misunderstand...I would do what I could to at least get a good four Atmos system going first before doing anything else. I know I'm probably missing something but trying to figure out what your doing now or in the future vs older and newer receiver and all the different setups.

Don't know why the boards are on back order.

I have a 7.1.4 speaker system.
My 7.1.4 capable AVR is in the shop.
My 5.1.2 AVR is not.

 

[thebarnman]

Atmos objects are defined at a position in 3D space. During playback the objects are recreated at the defined positions. It’s a function of the Atmos decoder and the users speaker layout defined in their decoder/AVR setup.

If an object’s sound was defined to be directly above the user and the user has 4 ceiling speakers then the sound would be sent to all 4 ceiling speakers ensuring the phantom speaker location appears directly above the listener.

I do enjoy that effect when something sounds like it's directly over my head but I'm starting to think music mixed in Atmos is mostly being mixed for 4 Atmos speakers not 6 or more. If someone is hearing it in six or more Atmos speakers, I think it's being up-mixed by the receiver/processor.

My receiver when playing back 5.1 audio automatically up-mixes it to 7.1. To counteract the effects of 7.1, I have a scene set up so when I listen to music in 5.1 the two back speakers are turned off so I can listen to the original 5.1 mix (so the rear audio goes only to the surrounds not to the backs and surrounds.)

 

[mandrix]

I don't think I would like my AVR "automatically" upmixing anything. In fact I have it turned off and only use direct mode.
But that's me.

 

[madscot]

I don't think I would like my AVR "automatically" upmixing anything. In fact I have it turned off and only use direct mode.
But that's me.

Me too, I tried neural x upmixing and nothing came out the height speakers so switched it off pretty quickly and went “direct”

 

[DrKlahn]

I don't think I would like my AVR "automatically" upmixing anything. In fact I have it turned off and only use direct mode.
But that's me.

It was one my chief complaints with the Marantz 7702 MK2 I had. To be able to use processing that allowed for bass redirection, the modes used did auto upmixing. Which was passable for movies, but was just not good for music. So I ended up using direct exclusively. Which sounded good, but bypassed the bass redirection. How the processor handled upmixing was a key factor when I was shopping for a replacement.

 

[HomerJAU]

If someone is hearing it in six or more Atmos speakers, I think it's being up-mixed by the receiver/processor.

You need to understand how Atmos works.

 

[Niek]

But you shouldn’t had to pay import taxes, Burning Shed collects the VAT for European countries, per the IOSS arrangement. It happened to me too on my last order from BS, so I wonder if BS does something wrong in their customs paperwork. Did your package had a big sticker saying IOSS VAT PAID?

I reported it to Burning Shed. I received a message that I will be refunded the tax I paid to them. In addition (for your information) yesterday this general message:

Hi

We are sorry that a few customers in the EU experienced problems recently where they were asked to pay VAT again to receive packages.

This affected some packages we sent by Royal Mail on Monday 25th, Tuesday 26th and Wednesday 27th September.

This was when we sent out preorders of Steven Wilson ‘The Harmony Codex’ and XTC ‘The Big Express’ amongst other things so it was a very busy time.

Some of you were told by your local Customs officials that the electronic customs data was not right on the packages.

We thought this was very strange and Royal Mail have now admitted that they had a “technical problem” which mean that the data was not sent properly to their EU partners on those 3 days.

We wanted to let you know that this was a short term problem and that IOSS is working again normally now and Royal Mail have assured us that they have completely dealt with the issue.

We are very sorry for any inconvenience caused.

Kind Regards


Pete

[email protected]
burningshed.com

 

[mandrix]

I keep saying side surround speakers instead of surround back speakers. Don't know why I got in that habit.
So please ignore that...
When I recently reshuffled things in the audio room, my brain, uh, dropout, caused me to wire the surrounds and the back surrounds in place of each other.
All straightened out now. I knew something did not sound right! All wiring properly labeled now for my edification. lol. Arrggghhh!