Streaming Atmos: Do you lose any fidelity with a Tidal Atmos stream compared to a Blu-ray Atmos?

[marcb]

Yep, one of a couple of absurd, gross problems that have been going on for years. Maybe if more people vote with their wallets they'll get the message. They certainly ignored the many reports I made about it. I think it was maybe just good luck that Apple's use of Dolby MAT neatly side stepped more than one serious issue with Dolby Atmos lossy encoding and the use of dialnorm. It would be fantastic if there becomes some way to implement the use of Dolby MAT afterward on some platforms such as Android TV etc.

Tying back to the thread subject, for my money, there is often an easily heard difference in fidelity between a lossy atmos encoding and lossless. I will always seek out a lossless recording over lossy in any format. But I'm an ex professional recording engineer. It's a matter of principle if nothing else.

It's a shame they settled on the atmos lossy encoding bitrate they did as per the spec it could have been double that, easily handled by any decent internet connection, something explored here in detail when the first lossy atmos music files appeared.

I believe lossless atmos streaming will eventually appear, just as in the stereo world. There is no technical reason it cannot be done, only on the server and marketing sides to decide there is an audience/demand for it. If that does happen, just like in the stereo world, initially the cost will be higher, $20/mo to the current market $10. Remember when the first lossless stereo services appeared they charged double the going rate for lossy (Tidal for example). Now that market has settled down to $10/mo from any provider, mostly driven by Apple, who became the 800 pound gorilla in the music streaming world. Remember when Steve Jobs ran Apple and took the position that .99 cents per song, was it, period end of story and that Apple would never join the world of streaming? How times change. Again though, Apple led the way in the business then as now. And this is coming from a guy who's held off buying an Apple TV device or subscription. But I think it's inevitable. For Atmos music they're just better plain and simple. Having said that there's no reason in the world they couldn't develop a client for Android TV devices like my preferred Nvidia Shield TV. For some odd reason they did do that for LG TVs. I'm running the Apple Music client on an LG TV feeding an atmos system in my office and it's great.

Lossless streaming eventually? Well eventually is a long time, sooo.....

But there are a bunch of practical marketplace hurdles to clear before it becomes a reality.

 

[dabl]

Lossless streaming eventually? Well eventually is a long time, sooo.....

Right. It took a long time with stereo too.

But there are a bunch of practical marketplace hurdles to clear before it becomes a reality.

Like what exactly?

 

[jimfisheye]

I'd guess there are maybe 5000 people on the planet that hung speakers from the ceiling and expanded their surround to 7.1.4. (Sitting on that source.) So streaming services around the world would have to increase their bandwidth just for us with zero reward for that from 99% of their audience.

It will happen! We have images bigger than the total ram in the Commodore64 now just because we can. I think we're going to be waiting a bit though.

 

[dobyblue]

Hurdles? I would guess hardware support, whether the device processing DD+ can also process TrueHD.

 

[Owen Smith]

Hurdles? I would guess hardware support, whether the device processing DD+ can also process TrueHD.

I think anything that can handle Atmos can handle True HD.

 

[dobyblue]

I think anything that can handle Atmos can handle True HD.

I can cast lossy Atmos from Amazon Music to my AVR, not sure how I or anyone else could confirm we can do the same with TrueHD Atmos.

 

[Owen Smith]

I can cast lossy Atmos from Amazon Music to my AVR, not sure how I or anyone else could confirm we can do the same with TrueHD Atmos.

True HD is older than Atmos so I don't see why it wouldn't work.

 

[dobyblue]

True HD is older than Atmos so I don't see why it wouldn't work.

Because what currently works isn’t TrueHD or TrueHD/Atmos, your comment assumes TrueHD would work.

 

[Sal1950]

I'd guess there are maybe 5000 people on the planet that hung speakers from the ceiling and expanded their surround to 7.1.4. (Sitting on that source.)

Do you really believe the number is that low, wow?
I've never really been what you would call an early adapter but I jumped to upgrade my Marantz 7701 pre-pro to a 7703 way back in 2016 to try Atmos. I put some very small speakers up on the ceiling to try it at first but not long after upgraded them to SVS Elevations bought used.
Anywho, yea that 5,000 number world wide surprises me..

I do highly encourage folks to get on-board even if it's only with a small Atmos capable soundbar or upfiring speakers. The survival of the format will depend on enough people being enthused and using it. Then maybe someday we can hope for a switch to lossless Atmos streaming the way we got with 2ch. It did take years of us whining to get it, heck Spotify still hasn't changed after years of promises. LOL The "audiophile" media like Stereophile, websites, etc; continue to beat up on Atmos everywhere over the sound of the lossy streams. The survival of Atmos may depend on it's acceptance by the High End folks with all the money.
Lots of us here have been fighting to see a wide spread popularity for surround sound for 50 years now, we can't lose again.

 

[AudiophileStyle]

I'd guess there are maybe 5000 people on the planet that hung speakers from the ceiling and expanded their surround to 7.1.4

Fortunately this isn’t the measure used to decide if Atmos in general should be delivered over streaming services and I won’t be for TrueHD. A billion headphone listeners help our cause.

 

[Sal1950]

I won’t be for TrueHD

??? You lost me, your against lossless streaming?

A billion headphone listeners help our cause.

Yes, those may be the numbers to keep things afloat.
But we're still being positioned against Jim Austin writing entire articles on how
horrid streaming Atmos sounds.

 

[AudiophileStyle]

You lost me, your against lossless streaming?

The number of speaker listeners won’t be the measure used to roll out TrueHD. It’ll be the number of headphone listeners and it’ll be competition from other services.

When Apple needs to one-up or catch-up to another service, it’ll flip the switch to TrueHD.

 

[Owen Smith]

Personally I'd say it's way more than 5000 people on the planet who have hung speakers from their ceiling, 5000 is simply nothing. If it were that low we probably have 10% of them on QQ, as readers if not actively posting.

How many are there? Impossible to say. Sales figures for ceiling speakers would be a good start if anyone has any, but assume over 90% of the generic ones are for stereo ceiling setups. It's angled Atmos specific ones that are relevant.

 

[jimfisheye]

"Ceiling speakers" are crude department store audio. People who don't really actively listen to music put these in their homes because actual speakers are unsightly. And sightlyness is far more important than audio for many. The actual Atmos surround sound listeners hanging ceiling speakers are hanging full range, full quality speakers matching the rest of their array. Those are just high quality speaker sales in general. They're not listed or sold as "ceiling speakers". In the way that "computer speakers" are synonymous with cheapness. Obviously you can connect the most boutique speakers made to a computer and call them your computer speakers. But that's not how the term is used.

I want to think it's a lot more people listening and obsessing over surround sound music mixes as a way of life. That's my world. I just don't think it's popular. Listening to music - I mean active listening - in general isn't popular anymore. Let alone surround sound. Let alone 12 channel surround sound! By all means prove me wrong, world!

 

[Owen Smith]

People who don't really actively listen to music put these in their homes because actual speakers are unsightly. And sightlyness is far more important than audio for many.

I'm fully aware of that dealing with my parents system. They want it to sound better, especially my mum, so they can hear what's being said on TV (a common complaint). But they won't let me put in speakers on stands, or floorstanders, or pull the system out of the corner they've shoved it into, etc. They argue technology should have been developed that sounds good despite the constraints of normal people's living rooms.

 

[jimfisheye]

I was thinking directly of my mom's home system. Mono with department store ceiling speakers. (Says it's stereo with dual voice coil speakers, I believe. So... pure mono, like I said.) She has zero interest in better sound. Music is for background noise and seasonal/traditional noises. Active listening would not be understood and could not be explained. Any 'better sound' would be requested to turn down and subdue.

 

[Sal1950]

"Ceiling speakers" are crude department store audio. People who don't really actively listen to music put these in their homes because actual speakers are unsightly. And sightlyness is far more important than audio for many. The actual Atmos surround sound listeners hanging ceiling speakers are hanging full range, full quality speakers matching the rest of their array.

I don't know, but I would venture to guess that SVS has sold at least a few thousand pairs of the Elevations I use since their intro in 2016. They must be selling fairly well as they just introduced a upsized, almost twice as expensive Ultra Prime Elevations.
https://www.svsound.com/products/ultra-elevation
But rather than bicker between ourselves on minor details, our time would be much better spent on working out ways to promote Atmos.

 

[jimfisheye]

It's just a little frustrating sometimes. I wish more people were into hi fidelity and genuine surround sound and QQ was more mainstream! I'll keep ignoring streaming and working on making better mixes even if I only see 3 people left out there!

 

[paligap]

"Ceiling speakers" are crude department store audio. People who don't really actively listen to music put these in their homes because actual speakers are unsightly. And sightlyness is far more important than audio for many. The actual Atmos surround sound listeners hanging ceiling speakers are hanging full range, full quality speakers matching the rest of their array. Those are just high quality speaker sales in general. They're not listed or sold as "ceiling speakers". In the way that "computer speakers" are synonymous with cheapness. Obviously you can connect the most boutique speakers made to a computer and call them your computer speakers. But that's not how the term is used.

I want to think it's a lot more people listening and obsessing over surround sound music mixes as a way of life. That's my world. I just don't think it's popular. Listening to music - I mean active listening - in general isn't popular anymore. Let alone surround sound. Let alone 12 channel surround sound! By all means prove me wrong, world!

I don't understand the need to separate "actual Atmos surround sound listeners" from those with equipment that somehow does not meet your criteria.

What do you mean by "full range speakers?" The most prevalent description I can find is speakers that have a wide frequency response from 20Hz to 20,000Hz. Most speakers that have that attribute are quite large. Are you using a different definition?

You're probably correct that most people with Atmos systems have neither equipment that meets your standards nor a dedication to "active listening" that matches yours. I just don't understand how relevant that is in the context of getting more people to dive into the Atmos pool.

 

[jimfisheye]

Department store style ceiling speakers are quite different from anything to do with Atmos or surround sound. That's all I was riffing on. The target audience is genuinely people like my mother who pointedly do not actively listen to music. If stereo mix elements were even noticed... they'd look for a mono button to make that distraction stop.

The stereo listening audience is missing the entire surround sound element. It's just matter of fact and they aren't interested. They are a separate audience. It's OK. And this is why the stereo mixes still and always need to be on point!

I do like nice sounding gear and I do like to talk about ways to get there! Meets my criteria... You might not realize the level of scavenger I actually am! By "full range" speakers I mean relatively full audio band vs dictation or TV speaker style reproduction.