Stuff that sounds amazing with the Surround Master

[J. PUPSTER]

Just trying to keep it straight. The only QS you played was Ponta Murakami? No SQ? And the rest was stereo, right?

Looking forward to details stay cool turn on a fan.

CORRECT.

 

[bigbillquad]

It's time for a Sansui vs. SMv2 - SHOOT - OUT
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I ran some titles through my Sansui QRX-8001 and switched with the help of a Zektor to the SMv2. The SMv2 was set at 12 o'clock for the settings. The Sansui built in modes used were QS Synthesizer - Hall, Surround & just QS. The SMv2 was driven by the Sansui amp using CD-4 Direct position. Without getting into the minutia of each title's sound, I'll generalize my thoughts, since they were similar for all the titles compared.

Here are the 6 titles that were in the Shoot- Out.

とてもわくわくする;タワーテディベアでさえアクションに参加したかったのです！

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We Want Grooove - Rock Candy Funk Party - RBCD
https://www.discogs.com/Rock-Candy-...eJesus-and-Tal-Bergman-We-Wan/release/4594037---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Shut Up 'n Play Yer Guitar - Frank Zappa - RBCD
https://www.discogs.com/Frank-Zappa-Shut-Up-n-Play-Yer-Guitar/release/3903714-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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I Robot - The Alan Parsons Project - 24/96 DAD
https://www.discogs.com/The-Alan-Parsons-Project-I-Robot/release/3981542------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Pat Metheny - Bright Size Life - ECM-Tower SACD
https://www.discogs.com/Pat-Metheny-Bright-Size-Life/release/9864391----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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ACOUSTIC 70s - (COMPILATION 3 Cd with Elliot Scheiner Mastering) - RBCD
* Only the song "Stuck in the Middle with You" by Steelers Wheel
https://www.discogs.com/Various-Acoustic-70s/release/11753394-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Ponta Murakami - Introducing " Ponta Murakami" - PRO-USE SERIES RBCD *** with QS encoding***
https://www.discogs.com/Ponta-Murakami-Introducing-Ponta-Murakami/release/12022080---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

* - In every instance the Surround Master v2 had a more detailed, discrete and balanced sound. The Sansui seemed to focus most of the action in the rears with the occasional discrete action, but appeared to be lacking in every area compared to the Surround Master.

Surprisingly, the closet the Sansui got was in the QS Synth. Hall mode, but still was a little weak in the fronts; overall detail was better there than the other modes, but just couldn't keep up with the SMv2.

More detailed analysis will follow in a follow up post as I get more familiar with the material and settings.

Hi. PUPSTER

You are getting INVOLVED with your Involve mode :::::::::::::::::::::::7

 

[bigbillquad]

Another great 4 corner Sound Poco Ghost Town..
BBQ....

 

[chucky3042]

The big dog is becoming a wolf!

Thanks Pup

 

[GOS]

For GOS' sake, will someone play Piper At The Gates Of Dawn through SM2? lol.....I need to know....

 

[Sonik Wiz]

* - In every instance the Surround Master v2 had a more detailed, discrete and balanced sound. The Sansui seemed to focus most of the action in the rears with the occasional discrete action, but appeared to be lacking in every area compared to the Surround Master.

Surprisingly, the closet the Sansui got was in the QS Synth. Hall mode, but still was a little weak in the fronts; overall detail was better there than the other modes, but just couldn't keep up with the SMv2.
More detailed analysis will follow in a follow up post as I get more familiar with the material and settings.

I know if my QS-D1000 was working I'd certainly be comparing to the SM v2. But really the closest parallel would be the QSD-1 with it's tri-band decoding & only in the basic QS mode. It's hard to anticipate how close they would be in soundfield but I am confident the SM v2 would be far cleaner & less colored than the D-1.

The selected titles for comparison seem well chosen with wide range of both music content & recording techniques. Of your selections I'm only familiar with the Alan Parsons & RCFP & I bet they both really rocked in QS Synth mode. In the Hall mode, you said the fronts sounded a little weak. I think it may be more like the fronts sounded stereo normal. In the Hall mode 100% straight stereo is sent to the front speakers. Only the rears are decoded. A left only comes out of left front in Hall, center left in the SM for a wider feel. When I would buy a new LP/CD I would always give a 1st listen in QS but probably 90% of the time I usually used the Synth mode. Hall did what it's supposed to do, sound best on classical and also useful on the rough live rock mixes of the day.

Of course as your comparing just nudging the balance control forward or backward can change everything. Heck just leaning forward or back in my listening chair changes the soundfield as well.

Looking forward to more analysis & details to follow!

 

[J. PUPSTER]

I know if my QS-D1000 was working I'd certainly be comparing to the SM v2. But really the closest parallel would be the QSD-1 with it's tri-band decoding & only in the basic QS mode. It's hard to anticipate how close they would be in soundfield but I am confident the SM v2 would be far cleaner & less colored than the D-1.

The selected titles for comparison seem well chosen with wide range of both music content & recording techniques. Of your selections I'm only familiar with the Alan Parsons & RCFP & I bet they both really rocked in QS Synth mode. In the Hall mode, you said the fronts sounded a little weak. I think it may be more like the fronts sounded stereo normal. In the Hall mode 100% straight stereo is sent to the front speakers. Only the rears are decoded. A left only comes out of left front in Hall, center left in the SM for a wider feel. When I would buy a new LP/CD I would always give a 1st listen in QS but probably 90% of the time I usually used the Synth mode. Hall did what it's supposed to do, sound best on classical and also useful on the rough live rock mixes of the day.

Of course as your comparing just nudging the balance control forward or backward can change everything. Heck just leaning forward or back in my listening chair changes the soundfield as well.

Looking forward to more analysis & details to follow!

Thanks SW, I know you're right about the QSD-1 with it's tri-band decoding, as I have that same I Robot in a conversion decoded with a QSD-1 (but only in 44.1/16) and it's actually why I knew I had to have a Surround Master - they are both spectacular sounding. First time I heard it I could hardly believe it wasn't a studio re-mix, it's that good. I will be receiving a new MOTU soon and hope to do my own Hi-Res. conversion decodes of some of these titles through the SMv2.

The Hall mode just had a fuller/louder sound than the others; which makes sense given what you mentioned. I still have much to learn about that Sansui. I did the comparisons with little to no changes in both tone and balance as a starting point. That's why I feel there's more room to experiment as I get to know the gear better.

And oh, those six Shoot-Out titles are just the tip of the ice-berg. Haven't even gotten my new TT yet, and that will be another whole adventure.

 

[bigbillquad]

Hi. All

Back with another vintage music experience these "Stereo Command Records" produced by Enoch Light are some of the more 4 channel sound you can experience I have a small collection of these LP`s and I am amazed every time I listen to them through the INVOLVE mode sometimes it sound so discrete you think they are Quad encoded..
BBQ....

 

[Sonik Wiz]

Per J. Pupster:

I still have much to learn about that Sansui.

For us old time quaddies that "grew up" on 4 ch sound, it's easy to forget others are just discovering it. It's not like you can go buy a copy of Sound and Vision magazine & find out how matrix surround works these days.

So I'd like to offer an article from October 1975 Radio Electronics Inside the QS Matrix page 16. I might be stating the obvious but the Surround Master evolved from old expired Sansui patents & technology. The Involve encoder really is a radical departure from Sansui encoding, but at the heart of the SM is QS decoding. Reading an article like this gives insight as why stuff sounds so amazing on the SM.

And, parenthetically, I have spent a considerable amount of time over the years pondering what new Sansui technology in surround sound would be like? What if they were still making high quality audio gear & Vario-Matrix decoders? That was answed when I purchased the SM v2. In fact I would say that Involve took such a unique approach to this the implementation that it exceeds what Sansui would have done.

 

[J. PUPSTER]

Per J. Pupster:


For us old time quaddies that "grew up" on 4 ch sound, it's easy to forget others are just discovering it. It's not like you can go buy a copy of Sound and Vision magazine & find out how matrix surround works these days.

So I'd like to offer an article from October 1975 Radio Electronics Inside the QS Matrix page 16. I might be stating the obvious but the Surround Master evolved from old expired Sansui patents & technology. The Involve encoder really is a radical departure from Sansui encoding, but at the heart of the SM is QS decoding. Reading an article like this gives insight as why stuff sounds so amazing on the SM.

And, parenthetically, I have spent a considerable amount of time over the years pondering what new Sansui technology in surround sound would be like? What if they were still making high quality audio gear & Vario-Matrix decoders? That was answed when I purchased the SM v2. In fact I would say that Involve took such a unique approach to this the implementation that it exceeds what Sansui would have done.

Thanks SW, and page 25 deserves to be in that new Quad Goddess thread

 

[Sonik Wiz]

Thanks SW, and page 25 deserves to be in that new Quad Goddess thread

Oh man that's great! I actually have the print copy of that issue but pgs 25>28 are missing. So thanks for the tip. Yeah, them stereo ads are somethin'!

 

[4-earredwonder]

The big dog is becoming a wolf!

Thanks Pup

I, PUPSTER

 

[J. PUPSTER]

I, PUPSTER

Ha - then why do I feel like this old Sod; as a Mad Scientist who's stumbled into Wonderland!

 

[fredblue]

Ha - then why do I feel like this old Sod; as a Mad Scientist who's stumbled into Wonderland!

View attachment 42850

let's hear it for Alfred E. Pupster!!!

 

[J. PUPSTER]

Per J. Pupster:


For us old time quaddies that "grew up" on 4 ch sound, it's easy to forget others are just discovering it. It's not like you can go buy a copy of Sound and Vision magazine & find out how matrix surround works these days.

So I'd like to offer an article from October 1975 Radio Electronics Inside the QS Matrix page 16. I might be stating the obvious but the Surround Master evolved from old expired Sansui patents & technology. The Involve encoder really is a radical departure from Sansui encoding, but at the heart of the SM is QS decoding. Reading an article like this gives insight as why stuff sounds so amazing on the SM.

And, parenthetically, I have spent a considerable amount of time over the years pondering what new Sansui technology in surround sound would be like? What if they were still making high quality audio gear & Vario-Matrix decoders? That was answed when I purchased the SM v2. In fact I would say that Involve took such a unique approach to this the implementation that it exceeds what Sansui would have done.

Awesome article SW, I'll need to read this several more times just to wrap my head around all the info.
Though this is not the thread to get too deep into this; the explanations/knowledge in this article are like Quad Gold. The article was written by an Sansui staff engineer named " HIDEO KITAHRA" by the way.
One of the thoughts I had while reading the part about encoding stereo with the out of phase extra info to create the circular or Quad Matrix material; was someone like Bob Clearmountain who mixes all his work in surround as well as stereo. Would someone like him have stereo albums that have more potential Matrix Quad encoding since he works with it all the time. And, is that something that is being confused (by me) of what an in studio recording engineer does opposed to a mixing engineer?

 

[fredblue]

Awesome article SW, I'll need to read this several more times just to wrap my head around all the info.
Though this is not the thread to get too deep into this; the explanations/knowledge in this article are like Quad Gold. The article was written by an Sansui staff engineer named " HIDEO KITAHRA" by the way.
One of the thoughts I had while reading the part about encoding stereo with the out of phase extra info to create the circular or Quad Matrix material; was someone like Bob Clearmountain who mixes all his work in surround as well as stereo. Would someone like him have stereo albums that have more potential Matrix Quad encoding since he works with it all the time. And, is that something that is being confused (by me) of what an in studio recording engineer does opposed to a mixing engineer?

i was curious while reading through all those fabulous pages, did anybody here buy that CD-4 demodulator connected with Mr. Lou Dorren?

 

[Sonik Wiz]

One of the thoughts I had while reading the part about encoding stereo with the out of phase extra info to create the circular or Quad Matrix material; was someone like Bob Clearmountain who mixes all his work in surround as well as stereo. Would someone like him have stereo albums that have more potential Matrix Quad encoding since he works with it all the time. And, is that something that is being confused (by me) of what an in studio recording engineer does opposed to a mixing engineer?

RE: Bob Clearmountain. I dunno. In another thread Zeeround has pointed out that engineers have phase meters to make sure mono compatibilty is good & not too much ends up out of phase. My favorite Canadian & Ultimate Flange Band Klaatu uses a lot of audio SFX with stuff just jumping out of the rear channels. So it happens. The part about " encoding stereo with out of phase extra info" is what I keep posting about with pre- synthesis to make a stereo record more like a quad encoded one.

 

[chucky3042]

Per J. Pupster:


For us old time quaddies that "grew up" on 4 ch sound, it's easy to forget others are just discovering it. It's not like you can go buy a copy of Sound and Vision magazine & find out how matrix surround works these days.

So I'd like to offer an article from October 1975 Radio Electronics Inside the QS Matrix page 16. I might be stating the obvious but the Surround Master evolved from old expired Sansui patents & technology. The Involve encoder really is a radical departure from Sansui encoding, but at the heart of the SM is QS decoding. Reading an article like this gives insight as why stuff sounds so amazing on the SM.

And, parenthetically, I have spent a considerable amount of time over the years pondering what new Sansui technology in surround sound would be like? What if they were still making high quality audio gear & Vario-Matrix decoders? That was answed when I purchased the SM v2. In fact I would say that Involve took such a unique approach to this the implementation that it exceeds what Sansui would have done.

Hey Sonic

Just a fantastic post, I just love some of the 60/ 70's magazines. I did not get the radio electronics mags back then (got Electronics Australia back to 1969). I get all nostalgic about all the equipment I see!

 

[ar surround]

I can't believe that I hadn't tried this one through the SM v2 sooner...Jakko's new stereo mix of the Moody Blues In Search Of The Lost Chord. It is terrific! The quad produced by the SM simply blows away Jakko's faux 5.1 mix. The only tune where I prefer the 5.1 to the SM generated quad is Visions Of Paradise. Otherwise, it's no contest.

 

[chucky3042]

Nice to hear comparisons against discrete 5.1 (boo hiss).

Just wondering what your QQ TEAM observations are for home cinema comparisons running the SM through good ol stereo VS Dolby/ DTS discrete encode. We have done it with instant A/ B switching but we are so terribly biased!.

Regards

Chucky