The quandary: do I move on from my superb sounding 5.1 setup to be able to enjoy the latest surround technology? Thoughts/experiences welcome.

[Sal1950]

Atmos music can sound anywhere from "totally blown away" to "why bother...what we had before is better." And these opinions can be about the exact same Atmos album (or track) from multiple users.

But isn't that, or hasn't that been true of every recording ever done, in any format you choose?
There are great recordings and crappy ones.
Listeners with great evaluating tools between their ears.
And some not so much.
I've been into this hobby since the early 60s and the more things change, the more they remain the same. A cliche I know, but true none the less.

 

[jimfisheye]

Yeah there will be some mono mixes that wipe the floor with some Atmos mixes. And thankfully vice verse! If mixing and mastering was easy, all mixes would be great. We really should celebrate the good ones!

The stand alone disc player and AVR route looks truly awful IMHO. Lots of effort. Lots of unbalanced cables! (on some of the consumer devices) Often a copy protection software spoofing lock down. Hunt down the Dolby media player and you're back to computer -> interface -> amps & speakers.
Both solutions are admittedly a PITA at present! This is the biggest hurdle to Atmos. There's no easy solution and it sucks.

"The more things change, the more they remain the same." You know what has escalated though? Different and novelty mastering. Back in the analog days when it was genuinely hard to do stuff you would find different vinyl pressings that were better than others (ie. closer to the sound of the master). So that all came to an end in the digital era because obviously every copy is now a clone of the master... Except it's the polar opposite and the studios sometimes create novelty masters! Marketing strategy for future "upgrades" or simply screw ups?

That business affects what you hear more than anything beyond a genuinely different mix. You have to almost go out of your way to find a DAC with something screwed up and perceptible degradation for the last 10 years now. Amazon and Worst Purchase products and the like are still out there but short of that.

Atmos is just 4 more speakers hung from the ceiling. And the 2 sides if you were 5.1 before. Can be the same speakers and amps you are used to. (Why change that, right?) There are 7.1.4 mixes being made. You want to hear some of them. It's as simple as that. Make a software toggle for the 5.1/4.0 vs. 7.1.x debacle. This is insurmountable now with the two wrongs stuff coded into media players. Including the popular VLC player.

Don't get freaked out by the format and terms like "objects"! You aren't listening to "objects" now... You're hearing the mix. It just happens to have final rendering and some of the panning done by the Dolby decoder with this format. Most music mixes are being done with 7.1.4 speaker arrays. Chase that. And if you put those mixes to smaller speaker arrays they will be downmixed and compromised by definition.

This is all about being decadent and absurd with sound!

 

[sjcorne]

The stand alone disc player and AVR route looks truly awful IMHO. Lots of effort. Lots of unbalanced cables!

A single HDMI cable connecting your playback device to the AVR? What a horrific thought

 

[jimfisheye]

A single HDMI cable connecting your playback device to the AVR? What a horrific thought

That can be slick. If the AVR HDMI input doesn't have audio disabled or the computer HDMI output doesn't have audio disabled and if HDCP hasn't been enabled and left to go wild. This stuff is out there. I read you folks talking about it! Recently I'm reading about "HDMI handshakes" and missing song intros. Real 21st century slickness there!

 

[Sal1950]

The stand alone disc player and AVR route looks truly awful IMHO. Lots of effort. Lots of unbalanced cables! (on some of the consumer devices)

I've been doing some version of that since the mid 1970s, never looked so "awful" to me.
First Quad, then 5.1, added subs along the line, now Atmos 5.2.4. No room to go 7. or I'd would.
Below, me and my Marantz 2270 with 2440 Quad amp ad-on and AR XB table. 1975?
But if any of it upsets your sensibilities, just don't do it. Go back minimalist with one small mono
speaker and whatever.

 

[Owen Smith]

A single HDMI cable connecting your playback device to the AVR? What a horrific thought

And for all its problems, HDMI is at least balanced at the electrical level.

 

[scottm18]

I may take a chance on the Tonewinner AT300 which apparently is the same thing as the Emotiva MC1--except for more updates and stable software from what I gather. Summit HiFi seems to have a nice trial on that TW specifically where there's no restocking fee to try it out. I talked to Amir a while ago about something else so maybe I'll give him a ring and see what he suggests

If I did this, I would find out just how much a preamp adds to the equation that's for sure. From what I can tell...quite a bit....because the AR sounds way better than my old McCormack MAP1 and even bests the (no slouch) Conrad Johnson MET1 tube preamp--and that's all it was changed in the system.

Anyone here with experience on either the Emo or TW device?

 

[DrKlahn]

That can be slick. If the AVR HDMI input doesn't have audio disabled or the computer HDMI output doesn't have audio disabled and if HDCP hasn't been enabled and left to go wild. This stuff is out there. I read you folks talking about it! Recently I'm reading about "HDMI handshakes" and missing song intros. Real 21st century slickness there!

Like any forum for any hobby, you will read more about the problems. People rarely post "working fine". I can say that compared to the days of S-video, component video, composite video and analog interconnects the grass is certainly greener with one digital connection.

 

[ar surround]

But isn't that, or hasn't that been true of every recording ever done, in any format you choose?
There are great recordings and crappy ones.
Listeners with great evaluating tools between their ears.
And some not so much.
I've been into this hobby since the early 60s and the more things change, the more they remain the same. A cliche I know, but true none the less.

Exactly. And more channels yields more variability in that ‘equation.’

 

[DrKlahn]

I may take a chance on the Tonewinner AT300 which apparently is the same thing as the Emotiva MC1--except for more updates and stable software from what I gather. Summit HiFi seems to have a nice trial on that TW specifically where there's no restocking fee to try it out. I talked to Amir a while ago about something else so maybe I'll give him a ring and see what he suggests

If I did this, I would find out just how much a preamp adds to the equation that's for sure. From what I can tell...quite a bit....because the AR sounds way better than my old McCormack MAP1 and even bests the (no slouch) Conrad Johnson MET1 tube preamp--and that's all it was changed in the system.

Anyone here with experience on either the Emo or TW device?

I briefly followed the Tonewinner thread on AVS and from what I recall it seemed to be OK.

For that price range I would rather pickup a used Anthem AVM60. A buddy of mine who's room was recently featured on AVS still uses one and swears by it. When he lived in Ames Iowa I heard it paired with Triad in walls and it's a very nice sounding processor. From what I recall it doesn't do any unwanted upmixing and the speaker profile feature would let you customize different configurations if desired. Here's his room:

https://www.avsforum.com/threads/november-2023-home-theater-of-the-month-powered-by-anthem.3289490/

 

[jimfisheye]

This whole thing comes down to access to the Atmos decoder. The two choices both suck IMHO! But you have to pick one. If you've been using the computer method for the last 30 years, Dolby trying to force you to buy a new AVR isn't going to fly. If you're comfortable with the HDMI connected stand-alones, there it is. And you have to buy a whole new one now.

I just have an aversion to computerized devices (which all this stuff is now) that I can't take direct control of and have root access to. Selling "off switches"... I'd rather give my money to someone selling music! The computer end of things is under attack these days too with rampant software spoofing if someone want to argue from that end.

My one digital connection to my audio interface is firewire at present, FYI.
(Newer USB stuff is just fine though.)

 

[DrKlahn]

This whole thing comes down to access to the Atmos decoder. The two choices both suck IMHO! But you have to pick one. If you've been using the computer method for the last 30 years, Dolby trying to force you to buy a new AVR isn't going to fly. If you're comfortable with the HDMI connected stand-alones, there it is. And you have to buy a whole new one now.

I just have an aversion to computerized devices (which all this stuff is now) that I can't take direct control of and have root access to. Selling "off switches"... I'd rather give my money to someone selling music! The computer end of things is under attack these days too with rampant software spoofing if someone want to argue from that end.

My one digital connection to my audio interface is firewire at present, FYI.
(Newer USB stuff is just fine though.)

In this case, they need to do something if they decide to move beyond 5.1 channels. They're looking at pretty modest gear and honestly this should be an improvement even with 5.1 since modern eq, bass management and correction on the AVPs being looked at will exceed what the Oppo is doing.

I ger where you're coming from. I work all day with tech and tend to keep my media room as basic as I can. I guess it's kind of like the mechanic that does the minimal amount to keep their car going (don't take your job home). But even though I mostly play discs, you can incorporate something like a Shield or Apple TV into the mix and have a pretty turn key media streamer. I prefer the Shield since it with VLC will play any media I throw at it. If you're just using the setup for music a cheap 1080P monitor will function as a display and be totally silent.

 

[scottm18]

I have no computer usage whatsoever. I used to run J River off the computer through an Exasound e28 DAC...but JR can only handle SACD & not DVD-Audio images (of which I have many more)..so I dumped it and went SSD drive directly to my Oppo 205. It's from there I'm currently in flux about what to do from from its path to my amplifier then current 5.1 speakers.

One nice advantage of the TW and Emotiva is the ability to set up the analog inputs as 5.1 so I can keep that (analog) connection as is if preferred. I believe the Anthem 70 and 90 can do this also but I don't believe the 60 can.

But in terms of quality I just can't see either the Asian-built TW or Emotiva coming anywhere close to the refined sound of the Audio Research preamp--especially with my highly-resolving speaker drivers.

 

[Owen Smith]

But in terms of quality I just can't see either the Asian-built TW or Emotiva coming anywhere close to the refined sound of the Audio Research preamp--especially with my highly-resolving speaker drivers.

There is nothing inherently poor quality about Asian built. Decades ago we laughed at Made In Japan, now it is sought after as a sign of high quality.

 

[MTB Vince]

I may take a chance on the Tonewinner AT300 which apparently is the same thing as the Emotiva MC1--except for more updates and stable software from what I gather. Summit HiFi seems to have a nice trial on that TW specifically where there's no restocking fee to try it out. I talked to Amir a while ago about something else so maybe I'll give him a ring and see what he suggests

If I did this, I would find out just how much a preamp adds to the equation that's for sure. From what I can tell...quite a bit....because the AR sounds way better than my old McCormack MAP1 and even bests the (no slouch) Conrad Johnson MET1 tube preamp--and that's all it was changed in the system.

Anyone here with experience on either the Emo or TW device?

Hey @scottm18,

Based upon your mention of Amir at Summit HiFi, any chance you live in Southern Ontario?

 

[scottm18]

No I'm not Canadian actually, though I do have some Bryson (and well Exasound) gear. I got in contact with him when I was thinking about getting a Zidoo media player, because he's one of the only ones in North America that stocks their higher end Neo one. And the TW as well..

 

[DrKlahn]

I have no computer usage whatsoever. I used to run J River off the computer through an Exasound e28 DAC...but JR can only handle SACD & not DVD-Audio images (of which I have many more)..so I dumped it and went SSD drive directly to my Oppo 205. It's from there I'm currently in flux about what to do from from its path to my amplifier then current 5.1 speakers.

One nice advantage of the TW and Emotiva is the ability to set up the analog inputs as 5.1 so I can keep that (analog) connection as is if preferred. I believe the Anthem 70 and 90 can do this also but I don't believe the 60 can.

But in terms of quality I just can't see either the Asian-built TW or Emotiva coming anywhere close to the refined sound of the Audio Research preamp--especially with my highly-resolving speaker drivers.

There's no compelling reason to keep the analog 5.1. I know it's what you're used to, but you're likely just going to be doing an unnecessary AD conversion which could impact the sound adversely. I wouldn't let that guide my choice at all.

If you could swing the AVM70, that would be a great choice. But the AVM60 is right around the pricing you're looking at. If you are seriously looking at the TW, I'd find an owner's thread and ask how it handles various formats and their overall ownership experience.

 

[scottm18]

There is nothing inherently poor quality about Asian built. Decades ago we laughed at Made In Japan, now it is sought after as a sign of high quality.

I was thinking this very thing when I wrote this...but unlike Japan who is pretty much state-of-the-art with everything that comes from there (my Final Audio headphones are a perfect example), China quality ranges all over the map. Let's just say I'm pretty sure this is not going to be of Cayin or Cen.Grand uber-quality at this low price...

 

[LuvMyQuad]

I guess I don't get a lot of this. The OP has several base issues to deal with.

1. The Room.
The room is admittedly small. The OP has repeatedly stated it is a very live, highly reflective space, and although the OP regards this as an advantage, it generally is not. Most on this forum try to limit high reflectivity in their listening space. Hence the effort put into room treatments and DSP room correction routines. The reflectivity issue will only get worse with more loudspeakers.

There is reluctance to install true overhead height channels.

There does not seem to be any satisfactory placement for side surrounds, lack of side placement is especially troublesome. It is primary to getting a good result with Atmos reproduction. I would also argue it is just as important to a 5.1 rendering of Atmos.

No AVP, regardless of brand, is going to remedy these issues.


2. No digital (HDMI) connection.
A digital connection is desired, but not required to achieve the above. It does however open other methodologies that an analog front end just does not offer.

3. Component Quality.
The OP has repeatedly noted how much he values the quality of his existing system. Many high end brands have been mentioned. Statements about the "sound signature" of power amps and preamps, even a mention of tube equipment. Quality of DACs, etc. All of this may well be dismissed by many as high end hyperbole, But the OP obviously believes in it and values it highly.

To then assume it can all be replaced by a budget, Chinese Pre Pro is very odd.

What are we really talking about with respect to tonal quality? The fact is, the major sonic signature of any system comes down to the loudspeakers, the rocm, and the interaction between them.. Everything else is secondary by a wide margin, assuming the source material is up to the task.

I don't want to sound critical, but It all just seems to be a big ball of twisted logic.

 

[Sal1950]

I may take a chance on the Tonewinner AT300 which apparently is the same thing as the Emotiva MC1--except for more updates and stable software from what I gather. Summit HiFi seems to have a nice trial on that TW specifically where there's no restocking fee to try it out. I talked to Amir a while ago about something else so maybe I'll give him a ring and see what he suggests

My only concern is that with Summit HiFi as the only US distributor, what happens if they close their doors to support or warranty?