The quandary: do I move on from my superb sounding 5.1 setup to be able to enjoy the latest surround technology? Thoughts/experiences welcome.

[JohnN]

I fully understand having to make do with the situation that you find yourself in, I've had to do the same here. But I do question the then final statement that you "was not impressed".
If we were talking about stereo and a poster said he had one speaker in front and the other next to him for alternate use as a side table but "was not impressed" with the stereo image, how would you respond?

I don't mean to be negative. Just saying I prefer this order:
Overhead
Front Height -one system
Dolby Enabled -one system

Cheers

 

[jimfisheye]

The two sticking points are access to the Atmos decoder and having to switch configurations between 5.1 and 7.1 listening for the side/rear faux pas.

It is what it is. Choose your adventure for the decoder. Acquire it from Dolby however you can or go AVR based system. Those are the only two choices.

Then just click the dang switch for 5.1 vs 7.1. We used to have to click a source switch between phono and CD. Heck, we used to have to clean albums and fuss around with all kinds of stuff! It's just another switch. It does suck not to be able to click shuffle play on a mixed playlist and feels like a digression for sure. To call this a show stopper and a reason to avoid Atmos mixes seems a bit dramatic.

 

[scottm18]

There's no switch because it's hard wired speaker cable to one speaker or the other. I think you have to at least swap the surround and surround back connectors, but it's been a better part of a decade since I've experimented. I'm lucky enough to have an extra pair of the same Phantom 8.3's including the stands... so this weekend I'm going to set them up on the sides and see how they compare in sound.

They must do speaker placement differently in the UK because this is from Richter Sounds showing a 5.1 setup...and other than the sub completely negative polarity from the mains, this is basically how I have it set up for 20 years now for music (80%) & movies (20%). No complaints on the 5.1 sound up to now.

 

[jimfisheye]

I fully understand having to make do with the situation that you find yourself in, I've had to do the same here. But I do question the then final statement that you "was not impressed".
If we were talking about stereo and a poster said he had one speaker in front and the other next to him for alternate use as a side table but "was not impressed" with the stereo image, how would you respond?

Good way of asking "what the heck?"! I struggle with confronting absurdity without sounding like an attack with this stuff. Some comments really read like "I substituted tabasco sauce for vanilla in this cake recipe. This recipe isn't very good!"

 

[DrKlahn]

There's no switch because it's hard wired speaker cable to one speaker or the other. I think you have to at least swap the surround and surround back connectors, but it's been a better part of a decade since I've experimented. I'm lucky enough to have an extra pair of the same Phantom 8.3's including the stands... so this weekend I'm going to set them up on the sides and see how they compare in sound.

They must do speaker placement differently in the UK because this is from Richter Sounds showing a 5.1 setup...and other than the sub completely negative polarity from the mains, this is basically how I have it set up for 20 years now for music (80%) & movies (20%). No complaints on the 5.1 sound up to now.

If I were you I would start with placement for channels 4/5 behind the seating area and angle them. You can play with distance and angle, but you should be able to find a spot that works and still gives enough spacing to enjoy a 7 channel bed layer.

 

[jimfisheye]

There's no switch because it's hard wired speaker cable to one speaker or the other...

I mean a "switch" either in the AVR controls somewhere of literally dial up a 2nd speaker manager setup on the computer to toggle between. Or just open the speaker configuration on the computer and click the alternate.

If some AVR product you're looking at lacks that ability... that's a tick in the 'cons' column. Any proper AVR should have a way of setting the channels and speaker array. That's the more simple control. Most of these things even have channel delay features and room eq options to cater to improper setups.

The comments calling this a show stopper...
Yeah, it's a little 2nd class I suppose. We're already this far though and there are 7.1.4 mixes sitting in front of us. Just click the switch!

You could get some passive speaker switch and wire it up old school too. Simple can be good sometimes. But there's already a control in the computer or somewhere in the AVR for free.

 

[LuvMyQuad]

There's no switch because it's hard wired speaker cable to one speaker or the other. I think you have to at least swap the surround and surround back connectors, but it's been a better part of a decade since I've experimented. I'm lucky enough to have an extra pair of the same Phantom 8.3's including the stands... so this weekend I'm going to set them up on the sides and see how they compare in sound.

They must do speaker placement differently in the UK because this is from Richter Sounds showing a 5.1 setup...and other than the sub completely negative polarity from the mains, this is basically how I have it set up for 20 years now for music (80%) & movies (20%). No complaints on the 5.1 sound up to now.

View attachment 105753

That's how I'd set it up, for movies, not music. The seating arrangement reflects that as well. Read it.... "For ambience and sound effects.". Also, the center speaker for "dialog".

 

[LuvMyQuad]

I mean a "switch" either in the AVR controls somewhere of literally dial up a 2nd speaker manager setup on the computer to toggle between. Or just open the speaker configuration on the computer and click the alternate.

If some AVR product you're looking at lacks that ability... that's a tick in the 'cons' column. Any proper AVR should have a way of setting the channels and speaker array. That's the more simple control. Most of these things even have channel delay features and room eq options to cater to improper setups.

The comments calling this a show stopper...
Yeah, it's a little 2nd class I suppose. We're already this far though and there are 7.1.4 mixes sitting in front of us. Just click the switch!

You could get some passive speaker switch and wire it up old school too. Simple can be good sometimes. But there's already a control in the computer or somewhere in the AVR for free.

My setup doesn't offer a switch like you describe, neither of the AVPs I use. The only way to do what you say is to go into the settings and set the speaker array differently. It really doesn't matter with a downmix to 5.1 anyway. The sides and rears just get combined into a single pair of "surrounds"

 

[~dave~~wave~]

I never have, nor do I personally know of anyone who does set up 5.1 in that way.

Pink Floyd, for one.
I rest my case.

 

[LuvMyQuad]

Pink Floyd, for one.
I rest my case.

Probably the only one. I

 

[jimfisheye]

My setup doesn't offer a switch like you describe, neither of the AVPs I use. The only way to do what you say is to go into the settings and set the speaker array differently. It really doesn't matter with a downmix to 5.1 anyway. The sides and rears just get combined into a single pair of "surrounds"

I see limitations like that on some of these style of products and it's one reason I make snippy comments about them. In the spirit of not moving the mountain (aka buying a whole new AVR), I might pick up a simple old school passive speaker switch box. ($20 in parts for DIY or maybe a $50-ish item.) Banana jacks or speaker posts on the back and a big ol leaf switch.

I'd be determined to find a solution that didn't involve giving up on hearing these new 7.1.4 mixes 1:1 however it played out.

 

[jimfisheye]

The notes with that Floyd disc use the words "useful guideline" and the only hard stop language is about keeping all speakers equidistant from the listening position. Equidistant goes without saying. I don't think they meant to take a hard line on 135 deg rears vs towing them in to 110 deg or so. If they did... well yeah, then they're in the minority I think.

Misplacing speakers and dialing in the timing with delays works a charm for the main listening position. Every other spot in the room gets weird quickly! You can only do something like that for one listening spot.

 

[LuvMyQuad]

The notes with that Floyd disc use the words "useful guideline" and the only hard stop language is about keeping all speakers equidistant from the listening position. Equidistant goes without saying. I don't think they meant to take a hard line on 135 deg rears vs towing them in to 110 deg or so. If they did... well yeah, then they're in the minority I think.

Misplacing speakers and dialing in the timing with delays works a charm for the main listening position. Every other spot in the room gets weird quickly! You can only do something like that for one listening spot.

IMO, 110 deg is the perfect sweet spot for music. And as equidistant as possible. It sets up the left and right soundstages so nicely, it cogs a bit if you try something that pans across the rears (and it happens so infrequently). It also works great with the overhead. But I'll sacrifice that for all the plusses.

 

[LuvMyQuad]

I see limitations like that on some of these style of products and it's one reason I make snippy comments about them. In the spirit of not moving the mountain (aka buying a whole new AVR), I might pick up a simple old school passive speaker switch box. ($20 in parts for DIY or maybe a $50-ish item.) Banana jacks or speaker posts on the back and a big ol leaf switch.

I'd be determined to find a solution that didn't involve giving up on hearing these new 7.1.4 mixes 1:1 however it played out.

Dude. A multichannel line level switch box like an old school. zector. Would sell in the surround community., making it able to control speaker feeds as well... I'd buy one. MCH switchboxes are unobtainium these days.

 

[DrKlahn]

Dude. A multichannel line level switch box like an old school. zector. Would sell in the surround community., making it able to control speaker feeds as well... I'd buy one. MCH switchboxes are unobtainium these days.

I've seen people use component video switchers to switch unbalanced connections.

My channel 4/5 setup is probably between 110-120*. I don't have any issues with movies. 5.1 sounds great. I get solid imaging in those channels.

 

[scottm18]

A multichannel line level switch box like an old school. zector

Oh yes, speaking of coveted old-school items... Anyone remember this? I forgot I had it as having three analog inputs on the the AR negates the need for this top-line Zektor. Not sure about now, but it wasn't too long ago this was red-hot in the used marketplace. Now the company doesn't even make these anymore & moved on to something completely different. I'll always remember this very distinctive name though...maybe this could be used to incorporate the switching you guys are talking about.

 

[DrKlahn]

A multichannel line level switch box like an old school. zector

Oh yes, speaking of coveted old-school items... Anyone remember this? I forgot I had it as having three analog inputs on the the AR negates the need for this top-line Zektor. Not sure about now, but it wasn't too long ago this was red-hot in the used marketplace. Now the company doesn't even make these anymore & moved on to something completely different. I'll always remember this very distinctive name though...maybe this could be used to incorporate the switching you guys are talking about.

View attachment 105777

That's taking me back to a rack full of VHS, LD, CD and cassette deck. So many unbalanced and s-video cables running all over the place. I still have some in a box "just in case".

 

[LuvMyQuad]

A multichannel line level switch box like an old school. zector

Oh yes, speaking of coveted old-school items... Anyone remember this? I forgot I had it as having three analog inputs on the the AR negates the need for this top-line Zektor. Not sure about now, but it wasn't too long ago this was red-hot in the used marketplace. Now the company doesn't even make these anymore & moved on to something completely different. I'll always remember this very distinctive name though...maybe this could be used to incorporate the switching you guys are talking about.

View attachment 105777

You should use that. Hook in the 5.1 outputs from your AR preamp into the zector as a source. Then go buy a cheap Atmos processor and hook that into the zector as a second source. Even that emotiva or Tonewinner will work for this. Run the 5.1 output from the zector to your existing 5 channel amp. Hook up your height speakers to a second power amp. Connect the height outputs from the cheap Atmos processor as a source to the 2nd power amp.. Keep your analog connections to the Oppo. Add a digital connection between the Oppo and the cheap processor.

Depending how you switch the zector, and the Oppo you can have 5.1 using the exact signal path you use now. Switch the zector and get 5.1 and/or Atmos from your Oppo through cheap processor into the same power amps.

This will allow you to try out Atmos cheaply without disrupting the existing signal path you like so much. How much is an Emo MC1 now? Aren't they 25% off for memorial Day right now? Mine works perfectly for Atmos. It's the other stuff it doesn't do well that prevents me from making it the only AVP in the system.

EDIT: Yep. You can get an Emo MC1 for $825 shipped free. An Atmos tryout won't get any cheaper than that.

 

[scottm18]

So many unbalanced and s-video cables running all over the place

Save for the S-Video portion, this takes me to what the back of my cabinet looks like

You should use that.

Wow... In an admittedly resigned tone, but regardless you just laid out of what I would do, and yes they are 25% off now which gets them almost to the factory renewed version cost for one brand new.

Thank you... Sounds like a great weekend project!

So my friend just came down and brought me another one to try: INXS Kick. This one really cranks up the audio bitrate to a whopping almost 35 Mpbs as shown on the 'ol Oppo info screen--the highest I've seen yet by over 10 Mbps

What's the highest Atmos bitrate you've all seen on a disc to date? And people wonder why I call the lossy, compressed streaming version "fake Atmos"...how can it possibly compare with that mega-rate.

But alas, another only Atmos and stereo option on Kick and again (like Yello) just does not sound very good with a mixdown. Not like a true 5.1 DVDA/SACD does. I'm definitely going to look into this update over the weekend when I have time.

 

[Owen Smith]

But alas, another only Atmos and stereo option on Kick and again (like Yello) just does not sound very good with a mixdown. Not like a true 5.1 DVDA/SACD does. I'm definitely going to look into this update over the weekend when I have time.

As I've already pointed out, what you get playing the True HD bed in 5.1 is not necessarily the same as what you get playing the Atmos and rendering it to a 5.1 speaker layout. This is very easily demonstrated by DSOTM with both the test tones and the album. There could easily be others. I hated DSOTM playing the True HD bed in 5.0 (no sub here), but rendering the Atmos to 5.0 it sounded much better. The Atmos mixer either guides the mix of the 5.1 or 7.1 bed layer, or lets it happen on auto pilot which I suspect is the more normal option. How often is that mix checked with a listen back of the whole thing? Rarely I suspect.

It may be that all you need is a processor so you can render Atmos to your current 5 channel power amp and 5.1 speakers. And if you get one with 7.1 analogue multi channel inputs, you can still play direct from your Oppo 205 so you lose nothing of what you currently have. Before you cut holes in the ceiling why not try this? If it doesn't work then send the processor back for a refund.