Tidal Adds Dolby Atmos Music

[J. PUPSTER]

My guess is that Dolby Digital + is not compatible in the same way. Tidal Atmos is not delivered via Dolby True HD.
I'm not sure in exactly what ways DD+ is a different animal, and I'd like to learn more, but it is.

Maybe some of you Techie cats can "decode" this info and suss out something
Also see the menu tree for more stuff!

https://developer.dolby.com/technology/dolby-atmos/overview/#!

https://developer.dolby.com/technology/dolby-audio/dolby-digital-plus/

 

[bracelis]

Do you know if you get the same options under Immersive Audio for Atmos if you don't have the Apple TV 4K connected to an Atmos compatible TV/Receiver?

Can you clarify what you're trying to get at ?
Do you want to know if you can connect the Apple TV 4K on a regular surround (example 5.1) non-Atmos receiver, if you will get the discreet 5.1 multi-channel audio, and not a downmixed or stereo signal ?

 

[HomerJAU]

Maybe some of you Techie cats can "decode" this info and suss out something
Also see the menu tree for more stuff!

As mentioned earlier the Tidal app streams a different file based on whether it recognises an Atmos System on the playback device. I think this is causing some non Atmos playback issues for some users here.

 

[bracelis]

If you want to test how a surround (non-Atmos) receiver behaves with a Dolby Digital+/Atmos signal, you can download the sample files from:
Downloadable Dolby Atmos Trailers - Dolby

But make sure that it's sent to the receiver as a pass thru / bitstream, i.e. the player (Blu ray with USB or PC, etc.) connected to the AVR via HDMI is not doing the decoding.
As a separate test, you can also let the player do the decoding, before sending to the receiver.

I don't know what the Firestick 4K does when you play an Atmos track on Tidal.

But I've confirmed and tested these scenarios below with an Apple 4K TV when you play an Atmos track (I already posted some of this earlier, but this info is more complete and has some new info) .

(1) With Atmos enabled on the Apple 4K TV, connected to an Atmos receiver, it will 'repackage' the Dolby Digital+/Atmos signal to Atmos NAT.
The Apple 4K TV does this with various streaming apps (Netflix, Tidal) -- so the signal will appear on the receiver simply as "Atmos", not Dolby Digital+/Atmos.
Other streaming devices (example Roku) send the original Dolby Digital+/Atmos to the receiver, so the signal appears as Dolby Digital+/Atmos on the receiver.

(2) With Atmos disabled on the Apple 4K TV connected to an Atmos receiver
OR
With the Apple 4K TV connected to a non-Atmos / non-4K receiver ( HDMI version 1.1 or 1.2, which accepts 5.1 Dolby Digital and 5.1 PCM, and 1080p HD video):

Note: When connected to an Atmos receiver, there is an option to enable / disable Atmos ("Immersive Audio") on the Apple TV.
This option is not available when connected to a non-Atmos receiver. (See attached screenshot)

a. Apple 4K TV setting: Change Format = Off
Signal received by receiver = 7.1 PCM on the new receiver, 5.1 PCM on the old receiver (as mentioned above, the old receiver only accepts 5.1 on HDMII).

b. Apple 4K TV setting: Change Format = On, New Format = Dolby Digital 5.1
Signal received by receiver = Dolby Digital (not Dolby Digital+) -- the Apple re-packaging the original Dolby Digital+ signal)

c. Apple 4K TV setting: Change Format = On, New Format = Stereo


(3) Apple 4K TV connected directly to a computer monitor with built-in speakers (i.e. there's no receiver)


In cases (1), (2) a/b/c, it plays the same source mp4 file from the Tidal (actually Amazon Web Services) servers -- I confirmed this by looking at the network traffic. The mp4 file contains audio only, and the Apple also downloads a separate JPG image file to display on the screen.

In cases (2) a/b/c, the Apple 4K TV will show "Playing in Stereo. This device doesn't support Dolby Atmos content" when you play an Atmos track.
But in cases (2) a/b, it's actually sending a discrete multi-channel signal, and the audio from the ceiling/height channels moves to to the 5.1 'floor' channels -- either the Apple is downmixing the height channels, or it's using the Dolby Digital AC3 'core' portion of the file which allows backward compatibilty with Dolby Digital AC3.

In case (3), the Apple plays a different (stereo) file.

EDIT / CORRECTION:

After checking harync's experience below where the Tidal app on the Firestick sends a 5.1 signal to a non-Atmos receiver ONLY AFTER having previously used the same Tidal app / Firestick on an Atmos receiver, I'm also able to reproduce the same behaviour with the Tidal app on Apple.

If I do a System - Restart (not reset) on the Apple TV afterwards, it no longer plays the Atmos file and no longer sends a 5.1 signal to the non-Atmos receiver, and it streams a different (stereo) / file.
So the Tidal app 'remembers' the settings even after you connect the Apple to a different receiver or TV.

And vice versa -- If I now connect the Apple TV to an Atmos receiver, it would still play the stereo file (it remembers the last setting again) -- I would need to do a System - Restart again on the Apple so that it will play the Atmos file.

 

[himey]

If you want to test how a surround (non-Atmos) receiver behaves with a Dolby Digital+/Atmos signal, you can download the sample files from:
Downloadable Dolby Atmos Trailers - Dolby

But make sure that it's sent to the receiver as a pass thru / bitstream, i.e. the player (Blu ray with USB or PC, etc.) connected to the AVR via HDMI is not doing the decoding.

I don't know what the Firestick 4K does when you play an Atmos track on Tidal.

But I know the behavior with the Apple TV 4K (I already posted some of this earlier, so some info will be repeated):

(1) With Atmos enabled on the Apple TV, it will 'repackage' the Dolby Digital+/Atmos to Atmos NAT.
This is the same with different streaming apps (Tidal, Netflix) on Apple TV 4K -- so the signal will appear on the receiver simply as "Atmos".
Other streaming devices (example Roku) stream the original Dolby Digital+/Atmos to the receiver, so the signal appears as Dolby Digital+/Atmos on the receiver.

(2) If I turn off the Atmos setting on the Apple TV, it will say "this device does not support Atmos", but it still sends a discreet multichannel track to the receiver, either as:
a. Dolby Digital (not Dolby Digital+) - again, the Apple is re-packaging the original Dolby Digital+ signal)
b. Or multi-channel PCM
depending on the "Change Format" = On or Off setting. I don't know if you lose the audio from height channels, or if the Apple TV is downmixing them to the 5.1 channels.

In all cases above (1), (2) a/b, it plays the same source file from the Tidal (actually Amazon) servers -- I confirmed this by looking at the network traffic.

#2 Above is with the Apple TV 4K still connected to an Atmos receiver.
But I believe a surround (non-Atmos) receiver will behave the same way, mainly because of the fact that it says "this device does not support Atmos" but it still sends a discreet multi-channel signal. But I cannot say 100% for sure, someone needs to test this.

My guess is it won't behave the same way without the proper HDMI version.

 

[bracelis]

My guess is it won't behave the same way without the proper HDMI version.

Which proper HDMI version ?
The Apple TV 4K should work with non-4K TVs, so you don't need HDMI 2.0.
Even the older HDMI 1.1 supports multichannel PCM and Dolby Digital.

Edit: I have confirmed that it sends a dscrete multi-channel audio to an old non-Atmos receiver -- please see updated info above.

 

[alansanchez86]

lThis has probably been covered before, in the previous pages, but is it possible to rip the tracks keeping the Atmos audio format?

 

[bracelis]

I don't know if you lose the audio from height channels, or if the Apple TV is downmixing them to the 5.1 channels.

I just tested the Riders on the Storm by The Doors. As you know the song contains the sound of thunder in the background. When played on Atmos, the thunder sound near the end of the track is only on the height speakers. But if I disable Atmos on the Apple TV, then the sound of thunder moves to the floor speakers. So you don't lose the audio from the height speakers when listening in 5.1.

 

[bracelis]

lThis has probably been covered before, in the previous pages, but is it possible to rip the tracks keeping the Atmos audio format?

Yes, I'm able to capture the original files with the Dolby Digital+/Atmos (mp4 container), and I'm able to play them on the PC and send to the receiver as passthrough / bitstream.

But it's probably not proper to discuss in this forum how to accomplish this.
I only did this to experiment and learn some tech stuff -- I promise to delete the files.

PS: There is a post in this thread which shows what the file looks like in 'mediainfo' -- that's the post that prompted me to try it.

 

[alansanchez86]

Yes, I'm able to capture the the original files with the Dolby Digital+/Atmos (mp4 container), and I'm able to play them on the PC and send to the receiver as passthrough / bitstream. But it's probably not proper to discuss in this forum how to accomplish this.

I only did this to experiment and learn some tech stuff -- I promise to delete the files.

Thanks! Just wanted to know if it was possible, given that you dont know when could Tidal remove tracks.

 

[usccompeng]

In the case of DD+, it should include a standard DD core that any DD decoder can read. Of course, a TrueHD decoder should also be able to handle DD+ natively, as it's a lower spec. Wrapping Atmos data in a DD+ container, however, might change things. Or, perhaps the Tidal implementation is nonstandard or a new, as-yet-not-fully-supported, backwards-incompatible standard created in collaboration with Dolby. If other Atmos-into-DD+ streams play back correctly, that would seem to be a problem unique to Tidal.

My observation would be the same. I have had no problem getting multi-channel surround sound from other FireTV apps including Hulu, Amazon Prime, DIsney+, etc. and I would assume the newer content is Atmos encoded. Changing the Firestick settings from "best available" to "Dolby Digital+" don't seem to change anything either. I would upgrade my receiver to Atmos if Costco ever brought back a steal of a price on a high-end, THX-certified receiver like they did when I got mine for about $1000 below retail price, but my speaker setup would require an Atmos processor with at least 7.2.1 (I have front heights) amplification

As mentioned earlier the Tidal app streams a different file based on whether it recognises an Atmos System on the playback device. I think this is causing some non Atmos playback issues for some users here.

If true, this is a really stupid implementation. For the record, my Firestick does stream discrete multichannel surround from other apps like Hulu, Amazon Prime, Disney+ and I would be very surprised if none of that newer content was Atmos encoded, so the format should be backward compatible. Not sure why Tidal made a dainbramaged move to not stream the Atmos file (with backward compatible core) unless an Atmos receiver is detected. I guess my next question is will it work on my HTPC if I install the Atmos decoder for Windows 10 and use the 7.1 channel analog outputs from my computer into the discrete inputs of my AVR?

 

[bracelis]

Not sure why Tidal made a dainbramaged move to not stream the Atmos file (with backward compatible core) unless an Atmos receiver is detected. I guess my next question is will it work on my HTPC if I install the Atmos decoder for Windows 10 and use the 7.1 channel analog outputs from my computer into the discrete inputs of my AVR?

Or you can get an Apple 4K TV which will send a discrete multi-channel audio to a non-Atmos receiver - see my updated post above.

EDIT: I've corrected the above statement -- it only works if the Tidal app / Apple was previously used on an Atmos receiver -- I've also updated my previous post above on the subject.


Regarding Windows 10, I already mentioned this in a previous post. When you select an Atmos track, the Windows tidal app actually finds and retrieves a different version of the track (example stereo FLAC). And I'm able to confirm this by monitoring the network traffic.

 

[atlantasteve]

I am playing atmos titles through Apple tv 4k. I noticed that if I go back from the song to the title list, I lose audio for a second or two. It appears to happen,for non-atmos tracks, too. Is that a problem from Apple or tidal?

 

[LennonCobain]

It is a crime that Tidal is presenting a re-recorded version of Vanilla Ice - Ice Ice Baby in Atmos. WTF

 

[harync]

I finally had a chance to take my Firestick 4K from my Atmos set-up and plug it into my old 5.1 set-up. My Denon AVR-3312CI is receiving DD+ from Tidal and outputting discrete 5.1. Since I set-up the Firestick 4K on my Atmos system I realize this may not help somebody who does the set-up on a non-Atmos receiver, but I just can't imagine there are CEC or HDCP shenanigans going on to prevent 5.1 coming from a receiver capable of receiving DD+.

 

[usccompeng]

I finally had a chance to take my Firestick 4K from my Atmos set-up and plug it into my old 5.1 set-up. My Denon AVR-3312CI is receiving DD+ from Tidal and outputting discrete 5.1. Since I set-up the Firestick 4K on my Atmos system I realize this may not help somebody who does the set-up on a non-Atmos receiver, but I just can't imagine there are CEC or HDCP shenanigans going on to prevent 5.1 coming from a receiver capable of receiving DD+.

Please clarify what you meant by "setup your Firestick on your Atmos system"? Did you have additional optioms besides DD+ and "best available". More to the point, is there a way I can take my Firestick, plug it into my buddy's Atmos receiver, configure it, and then take it back and plug it into my DD+ receiver and get 5.1? Any specific help is appreciated. Thanks!

 

[himey]

I finally had a chance to take my Firestick 4K from my Atmos set-up and plug it into my old 5.1 set-up. My Denon AVR-3312CI is receiving DD+ from Tidal and outputting discrete 5.1. Since I set-up the Firestick 4K on my Atmos system I realize this may not help somebody who does the set-up on a non-Atmos receiver, but I just can't imagine there are CEC or HDCP shenanigans going on to prevent 5.1 coming from a receiver capable of receiving DD+.

I tried twice to get it to work and failed both times with my Firestick 4K and DD+.

 

[harync]

Please clarify what you meant by "setup your Firestick on your Atmos system"? Did you have additional optioms besides DD+ and "best available". More to the point, is there a way I can take my Firestick, plug it into my buddy's Atmos receiver, configure it, and then take it back and plug it into my DD+ receiver and get 5.1? Any specific help is appreciated. Thanks!

I plugged the Firestick into my Atmos-compatible Pioneer VSX-LX503 and did the set-up. The Firestick detected the Pioneer (through CEC?) and Atmos just worked without making any changes to the configuration. Then I took that Firestick, and without making any changes, plugged it into my Denon AVR-3312CI. It showed DD+ 5.1.

Based on my experience, it's possible that if you factory reset your Firestick, set it up with your buddy's Atmos receiver, and then take it back to your house without changing any settings, it may work. Keep in mind I didn't change a single setting, not even the wifi because it was all in the same house. From my side the test would be to Factory reset my Firestick and set it up on the Denon and show it doesn't work, but I hope you understand why I won't do that

Based on some reading on the TidalDL forums, Tidal determines your equipment when your device handshakes, and sends one of three files: stereo FLAC (for PCs), AC-4 mp4 (for Android phones), or E-AC-3 mp4 (for Apple TV, Firestick, and TVs connected to an Atmos AVR). Seems kind of crazy to me that the Firestick/Apple TV would determine whether you have an Atmos-capable device and then send that info to Tidal, but I guess they are trying to keep the E-AC-3 files from getting distributed to insecure devices.

 

[mrcond]

I plugged the Firestick into my Atmos-compatible Pioneer VSX-LX503 and did the set-up. The Firestick detected the Pioneer (through CEC?) and Atmos just worked without making any changes to the configuration. Then I took that Firestick, and without making any changes, plugged it into my Denon AVR-3312CI. It showed DD+ 5.1.

Based on my experience, it's possible that if you factory reset your Firestick, set it up with your buddy's Atmos receiver, and then take it back to your house without changing any settings, it may work. Keep in mind I didn't change a single setting, not even the wifi because it was all in the same house. From my side the test would be to Factory reset my Firestick and set it up on the Denon and show it doesn't work, but I hope you understand why I won't do that

Based on some reading on the TidalDL forums, Tidal determines your equipment when your device handshakes, and sends one of three files: stereo FLAC (for PCs), AC-4 mp4 (for Android phones), or E-AC-3 mp4 (for Apple TV, Firestick, and TVs connected to an Atmos AVR). Seems kind of crazy to me that the Firestick/Apple TV would determine whether you have an Atmos-capable device and then send that info to Tidal, but I guess they are trying to keep the E-AC-3 files from getting distributed to insecure devices.

That is very interesting. My Denon AVR is not Atmos-capable, but I have an Atmos-capable soundbar (Vizio). I wonder if I could make it work attaching first to the soundbar and then trying it on the AVR.

 

[zimmy]

Today i finally was able to listen to music in Dolby Atmos through Tidal.
I think it sounds great!
I don´t think i would have gotten to this point without the help from northernsouls post that he had the same equipment (Marantz sr8012) as me and got it to work. Nobody in my neihbourhood or at the shop i bought the receiver would have known that i would need an adapter to the fire stick.
At first i thought i as before should go through HEOS to make it work but it didn´t.
But when i started the firestick and opened the menu i saw that i could download Tidals app and then things changed. Now i can see which albums are available in Dolby Atmos and not only the playlists.
I am really hoping that this will be an big thing as it might open up the surround market to many more people.
Myself i will not for example listen to the Hip-hop songs but many others will of course.

Finally i just want to thank that this site exists as it really has given me so much knowledge about surround music!