What's the Latest DISCRETE Quad LP Added to Your Pile? CD-4, UD-4

[fredblue]

Hold On, I'm Comin' - Herbie Mann (CD-4)

 

[fredblue]

There's One In Every Crowd - Eric Clapton (CD-4)

 

[fredblue]

Calabasas - B W Stevenson (CD-4)

 

[fredblue]

David Clayton-Thomas (CD-4)

 

[fredblue]

Godspell (CD-4)

 

[steelydave]

Ahh finally we know who did the quad mix for Godspell now, it was Carmine Rubino (who also did John Dawson Winter III and BS&T New City). Any chance you could post pictures of both sides of the record labels?

 

[ArmyOfQuad]

Ahh finally we know who did the quad mix for Godspell now, it was Carmine Rubino (who also did John Dawson Winter III and BS&T New City). Any chance you could post pictures of both sides of the record labels?

Funny story, he doesn't even remember doing that mix. I emailed him asking some questions about the mix since there were some things I found odd about it, and he said he didn't do that one. When I asked about him being credited on the cover, he was like, yeah, that was me then, I don't remember all the mixes I did. He did a lot of the King Biscuit Flower Hour quad mixes.


That cd-4 has issues though. The inner grooves are sandpaper quad, and some spots jump, I tried 2 copies of it, both had the same jumps.

 

[fredblue]

Ahh finally we know who did the quad mix for Godspell now, it was Carmine Rubino (who also did John Dawson Winter III and BS&T New City). Any chance you could post pictures of both sides of the record labels?

Rivetting! :yikes
The 3 & 1/2 people that care will be enthralled with that revelation I'm sure!

I'll update the "Unsung Heroes" thread accordingly with Carmen Rubio.
(I might add myself while I'm at it )

For you, DiscogsDave! :upthumb





Ps. Dave, ignore me I'm just in a funny (peculiar) mood sorry for being a biyatch

 

[fredblue]

Funny story, he doesn't even remember doing that mix. I emailed him asking some questions about the mix since there were some things I found odd about it, and he said he didn't do that one. When I asked about him being credited on the cover, he was like, yeah, that was me then, I don't remember all the mixes I did. He did a lot of the King Biscuit Flower Hour quad mixes.


That cd-4 has issues though. The inner grooves are sandpaper quad, and some spots jump, I tried 2 copies of it, both had the same jumps.

Must be a memorable Quad mix if the bloke who supposedly did it doesn't have a scooby doo.. haha!

YEAY! I look forward to that immensely.. an odd mix, jumps AND sandpaper! :banana:

Oh the ceaseless joys of CD-4..!

Sorry, sssssssseassssselessssss.. there that's more like it.

These features of the Godspell LP will no doubt prove a good test of the equipment, as well as my patience.. I may put a hammer through it all by the weekend.. on the cards already and its only Monday.

Edit: I just took a look at the vinyl while taking snaps of the record labels for Dave and bloody hell its no surprise it skips, the grooves are so super squashed together you'd need a laser guided turntable to successfully play it back (although the Japanese laser turntable I've been eyeing up "only" does 44khz so no good for CD-4.. wah wah wah..!) and there's what look like divots that ripple as I rotate the platter and shine the torch at the surface, including one or two that look like warps in the middle of the disc! If I can get anything remotely resembling Quad out of this one it'll be a bigger miracle than the story of Godspell itself. absolutely not in the right frame of mind to even try it tonight. time for a beer methinks :friday:

 

[steelydave]

Funny story, he doesn't even remember doing that mix. I emailed him asking some questions about the mix since there were some things I found odd about it, and he said he didn't do that one. When I asked about him being credited on the cover, he was like, yeah, that was me then, I don't remember all the mixes I did. He did a lot of the King Biscuit Flower Hour quad mixes.


That cd-4 has issues though. The inner grooves are sandpaper quad, and some spots jump, I tried 2 copies of it, both had the same jumps.

That's really interesting - how/where did you find him? I've been trying to look up some of these old engineers without a lot of luck.

The Arista CD-4s are some of the toughest to demodulate it seems, and I think a lot of it has to do with how much music they were trying to fit on a side. Some of those early Japanese RCA quadradiscs only have 15 or 16 minutes a side and even move tracks around so that challenging songs are closer to the outside of the disc, so it's no wonder some of those Arista albums are pretty rough sounding. I know that there were new computerised CD-4 cutting lathes introduced in mid-1975 that supposedly made for better/more accurate cuts but I still think cramming 45 minutes on to a disc adversely affects the sound. I can't imagine what the Melissa Manchester 'Better Days & Happy Endings' album sounds like in CD-4, it's nearly 55 minutes long!

Thanks for the pictures Adam, don't worry I've known you long enough to understand your wild and erratic mood swings.

 

[fredblue]

That's really interesting - how/where did you find him? I've been trying to look up some of these old engineers without a lot of luck.

The Arista CD-4s are some of the toughest to demodulate it seems, and I think a lot of it has to do with how much music they were trying to fit on a side. Some of those early Japanese RCA quadradiscs only have 15 or 16 minutes a side and even move tracks around so that challenging songs are closer to the outside of the disc, so it's no wonder some of those Arista albums are pretty rough sounding. I know that there were new computerised CD-4 cutting lathes introduced in mid-1975 that supposedly made for better/more accurate cuts but I still think cramming 45 minutes on to a disc adversely affects the sound. I can't imagine what the Melissa Manchester 'Better Days & Happy Endings' album sounds like in CD-4, it's nearly 55 minutes long!

Thanks for the pictures Adam, don't worry I've known you long enough to understand your wild and erratic mood swings.

The Melisssssssa Manchessssssster sssssounds like ssssoft sssshit being ssssstrained thru a ssssock, with ssssssibilansssssssse.

Thanks for understanding

Ps. To be fair, until I feel I've got CD-4 anywhere remotely licked (or sssssussssed, you might sssssay) I ought to refrain bashing it all the time, since its said to be the best Quad vinyl delivery system according to people here who have been doing this stuff since before I was even thought of.. its just so bloody maddening when you've got it all setup great (or you think you have) and one disc plays fab with no distortion, then another, then another.. and you're on a roll, yes yes yes, this is how its supposed to work, all wonderful.. and then out of nowhere one select track on a record goes BAM SPLAT on you.. its immensely disappointing when all you wanna be is a sucker for a happy ending! :ugham:

 

[ArmyOfQuad]

That's really interesting - how/where did you find him? I've been trying to look up some of these old engineers without a lot of luck.

The Arista CD-4s are some of the toughest to demodulate it seems, and I think a lot of it has to do with how much music they were trying to fit on a side. Some of those early Japanese RCA quadradiscs only have 15 or 16 minutes a side and even move tracks around so that challenging songs are closer to the outside of the disc, so it's no wonder some of those Arista albums are pretty rough sounding. I know that there were new computerised CD-4 cutting lathes introduced in mid-1975 that supposedly made for better/more accurate cuts but I still think cramming 45 minutes on to a disc adversely affects the sound. I can't imagine what the Melissa Manchester 'Better Days & Happy Endings' album sounds like in CD-4, it's nearly 55 minutes long!

Thanks for the pictures Adam, don't worry I've known you long enough to understand your wild and erratic mood swings.

I found him by doing some googling. I found this article, http://slocoastjournal.net/docs/archives/2013/jan/pages/mostlymusic.html, which led me to the page for his winery. They have a quadraphonic wine, http://danbinocellars.mybigcommerce.com/2014-quadraphonic/

 

[ArmyOfQuad]

The Melisssssssa Manchessssssster sssssounds like ssssoft sssshit being ssssstrained thru a ssssock, with ssssssibilansssssssse.

Thanks for understanding

Ps. To be fair, until I feel I've got CD-4 anywhere remotely licked (or sssssussssed, you might sssssay) I ought to refrain bashing it all the time, since its said to be the best Quad vinyl delivery system according to people here who have been doing this stuff since before I was even thought of.. its just so bloody maddening when you've got it all setup great (or you think you have) and one disc plays fab with no distortion, then another, then another.. and you're on a roll, yes yes yes, this is how its supposed to work, all wonderful.. and then out of nowhere one select track on a record goes BAM SPLAT on you.. its immensely disappointing when all you wanna be is a sucker for a happy ending! :ugham:

As someone that has gotten excellent results from cd-4, it has also brought me oh so much frustration as well. One day it can be sounding great, the next day you can't get a thing to work right. Everything has to line up just right. And there are some records that will just never work right.

 

[fredblue]

I found him by doing some googling. I found this article, http://slocoastjournal.net/docs/archives/2013/jan/pages/mostlymusic.html, which led me to the page for his winery. They have a quadraphonic wine, http://danbinocellars.mybigcommerce.com/2014-quadraphonic/

yum! I must try and get some of that Quadro vino.. might help the CD-4 go down a bit more palatably :beer2

 

[fredblue]

As someone that has gotten excellent results from cd-4, it has also brought me oh so much frustration as well. One day it can be sounding great, the next day you can't get a thing to work right. Everything has to line up just right. And there are some records that will just never work right.

This gives me hope and reasssssurance.. I may just be being an ultra fussssspot.. the sssaga continuesss

 

[steelydave]

I found him by doing some googling. I found this article, http://slocoastjournal.net/docs/archives/2013/jan/pages/mostlymusic.html, which led me to the page for his winery. They have a quadraphonic wine, http://danbinocellars.mybigcommerce.com/2014-quadraphonic/

Thanks very much for this - hope he doesn't mind too much being bothered by another quaddie, haha.

As someone that has gotten excellent results from cd-4, it has also brought me oh so much frustration as well. One day it can be sounding great, the next day you can't get a thing to work right. Everything has to line up just right. And there are some records that will just never work right.

Adam, I would definitely take his word on this, I've listened to a lot of CD-4, and AoQ's conversions are by far the best I've heard, not to mention the only ones that don't have that horrible sibilance that seems to plague a lot of them. My experience with non-AoQ CD-4s seems to be that on any given side, the first 1/3 leaves me thinking 'this sounds better than I expected!' and then the middle 1/3 is more like 'this is alright', and then the inner/final third is 'god I can't wait until this song is over and the other side of the album starts!'.

It seems that CD-4 is just an infinitely more finicky version of stereo LPs, and the playback quality you get is directly related to both how much music has been squeezed on to one side, and also how closely your playback needle aligns with the cutting head originally used to cut the album. I think that's a big part of the reason the Japanese Motown CD-4s sound so good, they never had more than 20 minutes per side (and sometimes significantly less) so they had huge runout grooves instead of trying to cut music on the 'super sandpaper area' near the middle of the record.

 

[fredblue]

Thanks very much for this - hope he doesn't mind too much being bothered by another quaddie, haha.



Adam, I would definitely take his word on this, I've listened to a lot of CD-4, and AoQ's conversions are by far the best I've heard, not to mention the only ones that don't have that horrible sibilance that seems to plague a lot of them. My experience with non-AoQ CD-4s seems to be that on any given side, the first 1/3 leaves me thinking 'this sounds better than I expected!' and then the middle 1/3 is more like 'this is alright', and then the inner/final third is 'god I can't wait until this song is over and the other side of the album starts!'.

It seems that CD-4 is just an infinitely more finicky version of stereo LPs, and the playback quality you get is directly related to both how much music has been squeezed on to one side, and also how closely your playback needle aligns with the cutting head originally used to cut the album. I think that's a big part of the reason the Japanese Motown CD-4s sound so good, they never had more than 20 minutes per side (and sometimes significantly less) so they had huge runout grooves instead of trying to cut music on the 'super sandpaper area' near the middle of the record.

I do very much take AOQ's word on it, Dave.. and similarly I've heard results of his and others from CD-4 that are so wonderful they're encouraging & tantalising and slightly perplexing at the same time, how can this be the same system that somedays seems like some mystic voodoo ritual is required to get it going, something I've found sometimes requires a prevailing wind and a wing and a prayer to get it working 'ok'.. and I have paid heed to so many pearls of wisdom posted by various QQ-ers on the subject (even some time before I even contemplated trying the system for myself) and from reading around it would appear some have conquered CD-4 with what comes across as relative ease.. I 'm not questioning the veracity of any statements made by anyone - at all - but some have made it sound like its mere childs' play, so simple and straight forward anyone can do it.. borderline nonchalance which only adds to the immense frustration encountered when you've run your setup disc for the 487th time and its all plain sailing, Rockin Soul (said by some to be a problematic pressing) rocks your boat and don't roll the boat over, only to encounter multichannel maritime mayhem when Jose takes you on a ssssssea cruise and you end up in the bottom of the river with pebbles in your pockets swimming wit da fishesssssss... glug glug glug!

 

[4-earredwonder]

I do very much take AOQ's word on it, Dave.. and similarly I've heard results of his and others from CD-4 that are so wonderful they're encouraging & tantalising and slightly perplexing at the same time, how can this be the same system that somedays seems like some mystic voodoo ritual is required to get it going, something I've found sometimes requires a prevailing wind and a wing and a prayer to get it working 'ok'.. and I have paid heed to so many pearls of wisdom posted by various QQ-ers on the subject (even some time before I even contemplated trying the system for myself) and from reading around it would appear some have conquered CD-4 with what comes across as relative ease.. I 'm not questioning the veracity of any statements made by anyone - at all - but some have made it sound like its mere childs' play, so simple and straight forward anyone can do it.. borderline nonchalance which only adds to the immense frustration encountered when you've run your setup disc for the 487th time and its all plain sailing, Rockin Soul (said by some to be a problematic pressing) rocks your boat and don't roll the boat over, only to encounter multichannel maritime mayhem when Jose takes you on a ssssssea cruise and you end up in the bottom of the river with pebbles in your pockets swimming wit da fishesssssss... glug glug glug!

A very brief but hardly comprehensive overview of RCA's dynaflex vinyl: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynaflex_(RCA)

Interesting to note that other major record companies were re~utilizing vinyl at the time and note that a lot of 'audiophiles' complained that Dynaflex sometimes resulted in bass loss.

Also note that Dynaflex pressings extended into the late 70's which would theoretically cover the entirety of the CD~4 era.:yikes

 

[quicksrt]

Originally the CD-4 standard was set to be pressed on higher quality vinyl than most regular LPs. Or pressed to more exact standards. Indeed, I have some Elektra quad LPs that are thicker and appear to not match other Elektra LPs I have in my collection. First pressing quads of Best of Doors and Best of Bread are thicker vinyl. The Doors seems cut hotter (louder). Has anyone seen these first pressing Elektra quad LPs that are the nicer variety?

Warner Brothers was already mastering their LPs to very high standards by 73/74, and the plant on the West Coast was CBS Santa Maria, which pressed amazing quality stuff for CBS and WB/Reprise among others.

Are these records that would have stronger percentage of successful CD-4 decoding? Or was it all over the map? I do notice CD-4 in general mastering resulted in larger end of side dead wax by nature of CD-4 technology.

I have a feeling that one play of a CD-4 LP with a less than perfect stylus, or over heavy arm can damage it's signal in some but not all areas of playing side. A brand new still sealed would be near fool proof for proper decode.

I have heard the Jackson 5 and Ross / Supremes Hits CD-4 conversions from Japanese LPs, and they seem to be good from beginning to end thank god. Wonderful music.

 

[fredblue]

Originally the CD-4 standard was set to be pressed on higher quality vinyl than most regular LPs. Or pressed to more exact standards. Indeed, I have some Elektra quad LPs that are thicker and appear to not match other Elektra LPs I have in my collection. First pressing quads of Best of Doors and Best of Bread are thicker vinyl. The Doors seems cut hotter (louder). Has anyone seen these first pressing Elektra quad LPs that are the nicer variety?

Warner Brothers was already mastering their LPs to very high standards by 73/74, and the plant on the West Coast was CBS Santa Maria, which pressed amazing quality stuff for CBS and WB/Reprise among others.

Are these records that would have stronger percentage of successful CD-4 decoding? Or was it all over the map? I do notice CD-4 in general mastering resulted in larger end of side dead wax by nature of CD-4 technology.

I have a feeling that one play of a CD-4 LP with a less than perfect stylus, or over heavy arm can damage it's signal in some but not all areas of playing side. A brand new still sealed would be near fool proof for proper decode.

I have heard the Jackson 5 and Ross / Supremes Hits CD-4 conversions from Japanese LPs, and they seem to be good from beginning to end thank god. Wonderful music.

You make a very good point about the quality of pressing by label having a direct correlation to the resultant demodulating quality and I think that's probably a big factor in my experience so far. I'm 70 CD-4 LP's down the road at this point (multiple copies of some, so you can take that closer to 80 discs in the format in total) and the Warner/Elektra pressings are the best of those so far with a very low sandpaper effect rate (4 of 38 distort) even those that are not VG+ (which is what I've been trying to get as much as poss).. the highest distortion rates are the Arista (5 of 6 distort at some point) and Asylum (2 of 3 distort) but the RCA's have no set pattern I've found and are the most variable.