What's the Latest MATRIX LP/CD Added to Your Pile? SQ, QS, RM, EV

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Don't know for certain . I'd need one for comparison . But I do know that that particular matrix album sounds excellent via my Fosgate .
Additionally I know Frederico wants to purchase one , so there's that .

i'd love to hear at least some of a Tate decode of Six Wives (in fact, it's a shame there are not more Tate decodes "out there" full stop!)
could you or anyone else here provide a brief sample clip at all? i can provide brief sample clip of it thru the SM SQ vinyl and/or Q8 for comparison just let me know (y)
 
Well I think that anything via what your suggesting would be too sterile and lifeless . The experience of listening to a good matrix encode via a good matrix decoder would be lost .

A "Tate " should be reviewed in a good sound environment (your very own preferred listening envire-room ). Equally any decoder should listened to in the same manner , including a Surround Master .
 
Well I think that anything via what your suggesting would be too sterile and lifeless . The experience of listening to a good matrix encode via a good matrix decoder would be lost .

A "Tate " should be reviewed in a good sound environment (your very own preferred listening envire-room ). Equally any decoder should listened to in the same manner , including a Surround Master .

maybe I should clarify Fizzy, I meant a Tate decoded conversion compared to a Surround Master decoded conversion of the same SQ record. never mind, for the frequency I listen to those Quads right now its no biggy, really, the Q8 of Six Wives is more than good enough for my needs at this point and knocks the 2 x SQ decodes I've heard (mine via the SM and the one on the DVD-A) into a cocked hat (imho) :)
 
I think the main reason the A&M SQ albums don't decode particularly well (compared to the Q8s) is that they didn't adhere to the rules for mixing for SQ. There was an article in Billboard that I posted a few years back (it's the third one down in this post) that contains an interview with Marv Bornstein, who did most of these A&M quad mixes, where he confirms this. I think that's a big part of the reason they eventually went CD-4 only, because they didn't have to worry about making any mix concessions that way.
 
I think the main reason the A&M SQ albums don't decode particularly well (compared to the Q8s) is that they didn't adhere to the rules for mixing for SQ. There was an article in Billboard that I posted a few years back (it's the third one down in this post) that contains an interview with Marv Bornstein, who did most of these A&M quad mixes, where he confirms this. I think that's a big part of the reason they eventually went CD-4 only, because they didn't have to worry about making any mix concessions that way.

thanks SD, brilliant as always (y)

(edit: it occurs the Quincy Jones SQ LPs of "You've Got It Bad Girl"
& "Body Heat" decode much better, to my ears, thru the Surround Master, than the Six Wives or Carpenters SQ records.. maybe in part because the Quincy Quads were mixed by someone other than Mary L.Bernstein and Bert Nice Warm Chiante..!?)
 
Yes there are indeed some bad quad mixes on A&M , (Joe Cocker comes to mind ), however I think all three of the Rick Wakeman quads are very well done .
To me they are the exception , whether CD -4 or the lone SQ Wakeman .
I would not equate their mixes to the tepid mix process the A&M engineers promoted .


And I still do recommend the Six Wives SQ album , almost demo quality .


When it comes to so called "Quad Preservation " I have to wonder why people , who do conversions , neglect the inclusion of the SQ or QS matrice on a separate stereo lpcm track alongside the discrete (conversion )version .
This I think is an imperative for any where the matrix quad was the source for conversion .
 
Hi. All
Yes fizzy...... I totally agree with you there ARE a lot of good & bad quad mixes out there but there is nothing we can do about it its done.
Factors that stifled the industry in the early days...

1. In the production of the Quad mix not thinking (out side of the box) being to conservative to there approach.
2. Technology was in its infancy in the 70`s and expensive & no company would come together to agree to a standard system.
3. The FCC. imposing a standard on Surround Quad music that had to be MONO compatible?????.

these are only view, there are others thing that happened as well.

Today we have the technology one of them is the SM Decoder with these so called bad mixes you can compensate with a good decoder and tweaking the balance and your room acoustics.

This is my on opinion I love when the music has movement in its structure & instrument local isolation.
 
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Yes there are indeed some bad quad mixes on A&M , (Joe Cocker comes to mind ), however I think all three of the Rick Wakeman quads are very well done .
To me they are the exception , whether CD -4 or the lone SQ Wakeman .
I would not equate their mixes to the tepid mix process the A&M engineers promoted .


And I still do recommend the Six Wives SQ album , almost demo quality .


When it comes to so called "Quad Preservation " I have to wonder why people , who do conversions , neglect the inclusion of the SQ or QS matrice on a separate stereo lpcm track alongside the discrete (conversion )version .
This I think is an imperative for any where the matrix quad was the source for conversion .

(imho) its not that Six Wives is a bad mix, its a good mix, i just found it doesn't decode thru the SM as well as other SQ LPs. what i mean by that is comparing it to the discrete version on Q8 there seems to be less definition as to where stuff should be.
by contrast, if i compare a Columbia SQ decode thru the SM to its Q8 counterpart, the SM SQ decode is often remarkably close to the Q8 with regard to the position of elements in the surround soundfield.. with Six Wives to me there's no comparison, the mix shines on Q8, its much more solidly imaged.

as for including encoded SQ/QS on a Stereo track in a conversion, that would be neat. that said, most people i chat to seek out the conversions because they don't have a decoder or don't have one setup or are not good with computers to do the software method and want to hear the Quads already decoded into 4-ch.
 
Hi. All
Yes fizzy...... I totally agree with you there ARE a lot of good & bad quad mixes out there but there is nothing we can do about it its done.
Factors that stifled the industry in the early days...

1. In the production of the Quad mix not thinking (out side of the box) being to conservative to there approach.
2. Technology was in its infancy in the 70`s and expensive & no company would come together to agree to a standard system.
3. The FCC. imposing a standard on Surround Quad music that had to be MONO compatible?????.

these are only view, there are others thing that happened as well.

Today we have the technology one of them is the SM Decoder with these so called bad mixes you can compensate with a good decoder and tweaking the balance and your room acoustics.

This is my on opinion I love when the music has movement in its structure & instrument local isolation.

all true Bill, though this is particularly about the Six Wives Quad rather than Quads' general problems.
as steelydave has suggested, the engineer who mixed Six Wives Quad didn't stick to CBS' SQ rules so it doesn't decode as optimally as a Columbia or Epic SQ LP would.
 
all true Bill, though this is particularly about the Six Wives Quad rather than Quads' general problems.
as steelydave has suggested, the engineer who mixed Six Wives Quad didn't stick to CBS' SQ rules so it doesn't decode as optimally as a Columbia or Epic SQ LP would.

I took Steely's post as pointing out the shortfalls of A&M 's overall mixing process for all their quads . I don't think there was any deviation from the SQ Encode , four in two out fwiw . If the discrete is good the matrix should sound pretty good when encoded .

I suppose I'd need to see that article as it pertains specifically to Encodes . Fwiw I can't imagine a label mucking up an encode . ( I suppose it's possible , rare but possible )

BTW , Freddums . There is a disc from A&M (CD 4) that I regretted not obtaining back in the day . Joan Baez -Diamonds And Rust .
What's your opinion of that disc good buddy , mix and music .
 
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I took Steely's post as pointing out the shortfalls of A&M 's overall mixing process for all their quads . I don't think there was any deviation from the SQ Encode , four in two out fwiw . If the discrete is good the matrix should sound pretty good when encoded .

I suppose I'd need to see that article as it pertains specifically to Encodes . Fwiw I can't imagine a label mucking up an encode . ( I suppose it's possible , rare but possible )

BTW , Freddums . There is a disc from A&M (CD 4) that I regretted not obtaining back in the day . Joan Baez -Diamonds And Rust .
What's your opinion of that disc good buddy , mix and music .

we really need steelydave to pop by and chip in to clarify but from what i could gather, it went down that Bornsein & Chiate took a decision not to be bound by CBS' SQ mixing guidelines and so mixed their Six Wives to sound great discrete "and to hell with the SQ!" was the insinuation! calling steelydave...?? :ROFLMAO:

ooh, good call..!! i looove the Diamonds and Rust Quad! :love:

PM anytime for more info about Joan's Diamonds' Q8 and/or CD-4! (y)
 
I don't think there was any deviation from the SQ Encode , four in two out fwiw . If the discrete is good the matrix should sound pretty good when encoded.

Unfortunately it wasn’t that simple of course. If you had a perfect encoder then from any four channel master tape you would be able to encode in such a way that the decode would be an exact replica of the four channel master. Unfortunately there was no so thing. The matrix system was imperfect (SQ particularly so) and the encoding process would lose information (largely positional) depending on the phase and amplitude relationships between the instruments on the four channel master. There were a number of SQ encoders (variously the Position Encoder, the Forward Oriented Encoder, the Backward Oriented Encoder and the London Box) all of which were compromises but which performed significantly different transformation of the four channel input to try and address the many particular shortfalls of the SQ system (such as mono compatibility). If the recording engineer did not know (or didn’t care about) the functionality of the encoder that was to be used in the recording process his mix / balance may not work optimally with the characteristics and limitations of that particular encoder. The result would be correctly encoded according to the mathematics of the SQ encoding process but may not be capable, on decode, of resolving the original four channel master correctly.
 
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we really need steelydave to pop by and chip in to clarify but from what i could gather, it went down that Bornsein & Chiate took a decision not to be bound by CBS' SQ mixing guidelines and so mixed their Six Wives to sound great discrete "and to hell with the SQ!" was the insinuation! calling steelydave...?? :ROFLMAO:

Yeah, that's exactly what I was saying. The only absolute rule for SQ mixing was that you couldn't have identical information in both rear channels (ie center back position) because it would cause the SQ encoder to create pure vertical modulation, which would make record needles skip out of the groove. Beyond that the other 'rules' are more like "strong suggestions" for optmising decoding, things like not having reverbs from instruments in the front appearing in the back (and vice versa) and not having stereo images along the side walls (ie in FL & RL or FR and RR).

It's my understanding that the CBS studios that were quad equipped (primarily speaking about NY here, but probably their studio in SF as well) had a monitoring system that allowed the engineer to listen to what the mix would sound like decoded in SQ at the flick of a switch. So they'd basically be listening to a chain of 4 channel output -> SQ encoder -> SQ decoder -> 4 channel playback. This allowed them to see how their mixing decisions fared during the encoding/decoding process, and change things that didn't work. Also CBS had a vested interest in promoting SQ as the best quad system (since they were one of the patent holders) so they made mixes that maximised the separation between channels, especially in the early days ('72/'73) when SQ decoders were pretty much hot garbage. Think of stuff like Janis Joplin Pearl, Sly & The Family Stone Greatest Hits etc. - what Adam would call 'four corner' mixes, because that kind of mixing style got the most out of the limitations of the SQ process. So with a lot of the Columbia/Epic quads, I think the SQ LP was their main consideration, doing a mix that would get the most out of the LP format, and the Q8 was really an afterthought, basically just a discrete 4 channel capture of the work that was done to create the SQ-optimised mix.

A&M on the other hand, just did their quad mixes as they pleased (as that article I linked to says) and then just SQ-encoded them when they were done, so it's no surprise that some of the quad LPs don't decode as well. It's not because the mixes were bad (the Wakeman and Quincy Jones quad mixes are some of my favourite quad mixes ever) it's because they didn't let the limitations of SQ influence how they did their mixing, as Soundfield's post above explains better than I ever could. As I said before, I think this is part of the reason they later moved to CD-4 - with that format you didn't have to worry about what effect your mixing decisions would have on the decoding process, and I think that suited their style and philosophy. It's a shame A&M shut down their quad program in 1975 - much like RCA and WEA, they were just hitting their stride in terms of fully-immersive, detailed and nuanced quad mixing just as they pulled the plug on it.

One of the things I love about quad is how many different approaches there were to mixing, and how the talented engineers that did it often took the limitations they were working under and used them as inspiration. Without the "rules" and limitations of SQ we may never have had some of the crazily discrete super dry CBS quad mixes that many of us love so much. Imagine if the majority of quad mixes were 'big stereo' with the same vocals and instruments in all 4 speakers - I don't think we'd still be obsessing over them 40+ years later, instead they'd probably be consigned to history's dustbin along with things like Capitol's "duophonic" fake stereo of the 60s.
 
Unfortunately it wasn’t that simple of course. If you had a perfect encoder then from any four channel master tape you would be able to encode in such a way that the decode would be an exact replica of the four channel master. Unfortunately there was no so thing. The matrix system was imperfect (SQ particularly so) and the encoding process would lose information (largely positional) depending on the phase and amplitude relationships between the instruments on the four channel master. There were a number of SQ encoders (variously the Position Encoder, the Forward Oriented Encoder, the Backward Oriented Encoder and the London Box) all of which were compromises but which performed significantly different transformation of the four channel input to try and address the many particular shortfalls of the SQ system (such as mono compatibility). If the recording engineer did not know (or didn’t care about) the functionality of the encoder that was to be used in the recording process his mix / balance may not work optimally with the characteristics and limitations of that particular encoder. The result would be correctly encoded according to the mathematics of the SQ encoding process but may not be capable, on decode, of resolving the original four channel master correctly.

In no way did I state the Encode would be the identical as such of a discrete as I read your response . And in the case of a mix containing a rear center or even a front center channel it would not matter as the mix is the discrete quadrant , only 4channels .
Your getting ahead of yourself with the London box, the Position Encoder , and forward oriented , rear oriented Encoders as these were only utilized in the dying days of Quad encoding and would not relate to the disc in question , for that matter any A&M matrix encode . Their usage was well beyond A&M 'S quad matrix experiment program .
Not that I don't appreciate the mention of these advanced encoders though , and we could also include the Ghent mic encoder as well, again , well beyond the time frame .
From what I've read very few SQ matrix recordings were ever encoded with these advanced models .
 
Yeah, that's exactly what I was saying. The only absolute rule for SQ mixing was that you couldn't have identical information in both rear channels (ie center back position) because it would cause the SQ encoder to create pure vertical modulation, which would make record needles skip out of the groove. Beyond that the other 'rules' are more like "strong suggestions" for optmising decoding, things like not having reverbs from instruments in the front appearing in the back (and vice versa) and not having stereo images along the side walls (ie in FL & RL or FR and RR).

It's my understanding that the CBS studios that were quad equipped (primarily speaking about NY here, but probably their studio in SF as well) had a monitoring system that allowed the engineer to listen to what the mix would sound like decoded in SQ at the flick of a switch. So they'd basically be listening to a chain of 4 channel output -> SQ encoder -> SQ decoder -> 4 channel playback. This allowed them to see how their mixing decisions fared during the encoding/decoding process, and change things that didn't work. Also CBS had a vested interest in promoting SQ as the best quad system (since they were one of the patent holders) so they made mixes that maximised the separation between channels, especially in the early days ('72/'73) when SQ decoders were pretty much hot garbage. Think of stuff like Janis Joplin Pearl, Sly & The Family Stone Greatest Hits etc. - what Adam would call 'four corner' mixes, because that kind of mixing style got the most out of the limitations of the SQ process. So with a lot of the Columbia/Epic quads, I think the SQ LP was their main consideration, doing a mix that would get the most out of the LP format, and the Q8 was really an afterthought, basically just a discrete 4 channel capture of the work that was done to create the SQ-optimised mix.

A&M on the other hand, just did their quad mixes as they pleased (as that article I linked to says) and then just SQ-encoded them when they were done, so it's no surprise that some of the quad LPs don't decode as well. It's not because the mixes were bad (the Wakeman and Quincy Jones quad mixes are some of my favourite quad mixes ever) it's because they didn't let the limitations of SQ influence how they did their mixing, as Soundfield's post above explains better than I ever could. As I said before, I think this is part of the reason they later moved to CD-4 - with that format you didn't have to worry about what effect your mixing decisions would have on the decoding process, and I think that suited their style and philosophy. It's a shame A&M shut down their quad program in 1975 - much like RCA and WEA, they were just hitting their stride in terms of fully-immersive, detailed and nuanced quad mixing just as they pulled the plug on it.

One of the things I love about quad is how many different approaches there were to mixing, and how the talented engineers that did it often took the limitations they were working under and used them as inspiration. Without the "rules" and limitations of SQ we may never have had some of the crazily discrete super dry CBS quad mixes that many of us love so much. Imagine if the majority of quad mixes were 'big stereo' with the same vocals and instruments in all 4 speakers - I don't think we'd still be obsessing over them 40+ years later, instead they'd probably be consigned to history's dustbin along with things like Capitol's "duophonic" fake stereo of the 60s.


What your suggesting is that CBS monitored their encodes , no doubt via a good decoder . But others such as A&M did not use a decoder for monitoring ?
Sorry Dave , I kinda find that hard to believe .
I mean how would they know they acheived anything worth selling as per their investment ?

At this conjuncture it might be best if you could dig up that article pertaining to A&M 'S encodes .

I know at some time not too long ago Jon had made reference to a Billboard article that managed to appear and it made mention of the two engineers responsible for A&M 's quad program ,.....but that was in relation to the quad mixes (discrete).
I wonder if that could possibly be the article your referring to. I do know they mentioned that they tended to be in favour of very laclustre mixes , mixes that would not necessarily use the full potential of the quadrant . And that's rather disappointing for any fan of quad.
 
maybe I should clarify Fizzy, I meant a Tate decoded conversion compared to a Surround Master decoded conversion of the same SQ record. never mind, for the frequency I listen to those Quads right now its no biggy, really, the Q8 of Six Wives is more than good enough for my needs at this point and knocks the 2 x SQ decodes I've heard (mine via the SM and the one on the DVD-A) into a cocked hat (imho) :)

Yeah I don't know what to make of that DVDA version in relation to the SQ encoded vinyl , but it ain't all bad to my ears .
It sounds pretty clean to me , so I rather like it . And the disc , SQ vinyl , is a nice encode from the discrete . The original quad mix is a good one, small wonder as Rick Wakeman did his own quad mixing.
 
Nice box of 3 mint records today:
BM1.JPG

It's only 1975 but even now EMI have stopped shouting about SQ - there's a tiny logo on the back of the box but the system doesn't even warrant a mention on the discs:
BM2.JPG
 
Yeah I don't know what to make of that DVDA version in relation to the SQ encoded vinyl , but it ain't all bad to my ears .
It sounds pretty clean to me , so I rather like it . And the disc , SQ vinyl , is a nice encode from the discrete . The original quad mix is a good one, small wonder as Rick Wakeman did his own quad mixing.

Rick Wakeman did his own Quad mixing!? for which of his records?
the Six Wives, King Arthur & JTTCOTE Quads were all mixed in Quad by A&M's Bart Chiate & Marv Bornstein.
 
Rick Wakeman did his own Quad mixing!? for which of his records?
the Six Wives, King Arthur & JTTCOTE Quads were all mixed in Quad by A&M's Bart Chiate & Marv Bornstein.


Well according to that particular Billboard article ; Chuck Mangione , Quincy Jones , and Rick Wakeman preferred to mix their own quads . I'm guessing they had the final say in how the quad was to be presented by the engineer or the engineer was more of an assistant . Not unusual for the artist to control the actual quad mix .

And to be frank , I missed that link originally , but my opinion remains unchanged on that Quad SQ encode .
Note that they say they treated their SQ encodes like the discrete mix . I don't find that article in any way to disparage SQ encoding by A&M .

Columbia/CBS SQ encodes are somewhat comparable to the Q8 'S and I agree , but they have hundreds of discs whereas A&M has but seven .
I had the two Quincy Jones discs (SQ) and also found them to be very good encodes . Perhaps it's telling when the artist is so involved .
 
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Hi. All

I kept back These Toshiba LP`s until I had a view to show so here they are & the other thing about them they all came in a box a little extravagant....

( Toshiba QM=QS TP-9501Z -Love Story Dynamic 4ch Screen Music )-
( Toshiba QM=QS TP-9510Z -Easy Listening For Young )-
( Toshiba QM=QS TP-9506Z -Dynamic Mood Music In Sound Effects )-
( Toshiba QM=QS TP-9507z -Dynamic Young Hit Deluxe Silver Strings )-
( Toshiba QM=QS TP-9516Z -Dynamic Big Band )-
( Toshiba QM=QS TP-9519Z -Dynamic March In Bacharach )-
( Toshiba QM=QS TP-9504Z -Dynamic Guitar Mood Special )-
( Toshiba QM=QS TP-9613Z -Dynamic Screen Mood Vo.2 )-
( Toshiba QM=QS TP-9517Z -Dynamic Golden Sax )-

( Canyon. SQ C-1066 -4CH Drum vs. Drum /Splendid )-
(CBS. SQ SOCM-52 -1812 Overture Op.49 Romeo & Joliet-Fantasy )-

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