5.2.2 vs. 5.2.4?

[RustyStatic]

Hey @beerking, in that Elton John Atmos thread you mentioned to @fredblue:

You are missing a trick there Adam.
Realise that space is tight but the difference is like night and day.

I’ve got a pretty small space overall, currently rocking a 5.2.2 setup… because of the nature of the room design, the only place I could put the overheads was sorta on the left and right of the sweet spot… and it sounds fantastic.

I have been wrestling with the fact that I could put another pair on the ceiling, but the only place I could put them is pretty close to the front L-R pair. The room is also kinda too small for me to think that any side L-R speakers would make much of a difference … and I’m wondering with the heights currently pretty much at my side, would I even hear another pair closer to the front? Would it make a huge difference?

Your comment has me wondering, ‘cause I sure don’t wanna miss any tricks.

Thoughts on the matter?

 

[beerking]

Hey @beerking, in that Elton John Atmos thread you mentioned to @fredblue:



I’ve got a pretty small space overall, currently rocking a 5.2.2 setup… because of the nature of the room design, the only place I could put the overheads was sorta on the left and right of the sweet spot… and it sounds fantastic.

I have been wrestling with the fact that I could put another pair on the ceiling, but the only place I could put them is pretty close to the front L-R pair. The room is also kinda too small for me to think that any side L-R speakers would make much of a difference … and I’m wondering with the heights currently pretty much at my side, would I even hear another pair closer to the front? Would it make a huge difference?

Your comment has me wondering, ‘cause I sure don’t wanna miss any tricks.

Thoughts on the matter?

Hi Rusty,
Well my first thoughts are on the dimensions of your listening room.
As it was and is with Adams.

I'm basing my comment like 'night and day' primarily on my experience with my bat cave dimensions. I understand that I'm fortunate to have a reasonably sized room and not everybody has the space to replicate somewhere near my set up, which is 7.2.4.

I don't have ceiling Atmos speakers as I can't gain access to install them, without an unsightly wiring configuration.

I use height speakers x4, 2 on the front wall and 2 on the rear wall.

This gives me a very satisfactory Atmos effect which helps me enjoy all that is available in the releases that employ this medium.

Do you have an AVR which is capable of producing an 5.2 4 Atmos effect, like the Denon 3700H?

If so, then it could be worth installing a couple of rear wall mounted height speakers, without too much trouble, if the access is there.

This can be on a temporary basis to see whether your room size allows for the appreciation of the full Atmos effect.

Like all forms of art it is subjective, in this case, on the ears of the individual listener.

And the sonics produced in an available environment.

Personally, I've been banging on about the 360 wall of sound since 2018/2019 when I first played Booka Shades Galvany Street.

This had everything I ever wanted in my quest for the ultimate, music surround sound experience.

And then Kraftwerks release just blew me away, in setting the bar for Atmos to another higher level.

I even had to swallow my pride and purchase an Apple product to enjoy their Spatial Audio sound.

I'm one happy chappy with all that is 7.2.4!!

I hope my enthusiasm gives you the inspiration to find a way to hear Atmos in a new way.

Cheers

Mike

 

[kap'n krunch]

My room is 11' by 12' with 10' ceilings and I am going for 7.1.4!

 

[beerking]

My room is 11' by 12' with 10' ceilings and I am going for 7.1.4!

Very similar to my rooms dimensions, Kap.

 

[RustyStatic]

Woah… ok interesting, and thanks for the insight fellas. I drew up what I’m working with right now, along with what I’m considering circled in red. Aside from the expense , the side speakers would be a bit of a teaser since I only have a knee wall on the sides (see pics)… I might have to use Focal Domes for those too (that’s what I’m using for the heights). And yeah, I would have access to do full front or rear heights…

I guess this is bigger than what you’re working with and you’re going for it, eh Kap?! So I’m guessing you guys would say “if you can swing it, do it?”

 

[RustyStatic]

And oh yeah, I have a Marantz SR8015 so no problems being able to handle that many speakers and then some…

 

[beerking]

Woah… ok interesting, and thanks for the insight fellas. I drew up what I’m working with right now, along with what I’m considering circled in red. Aside from the expense , the side speakers would be a bit of a teaser since I only have a knee wall on the sides (see pics)… I might have to use Focal Domes for those too (that’s what I’m using for the heights). And yeah, I would have access to do full front or rear heights…

I guess this is bigger than what you’re working with and you’re going for it, eh Kap?! So I’m guessing you guys would say “if you can swing it, do it?”

View attachment 80944View attachment 80945View attachment 80946

Ah, I would say Rusty, you have the space to reconfigure your speaker set up to make it 5.2.4

 

[beerking]

And oh yeah, I have a Marantz SR8015 so no problems being able to handle that many speakers and then some…

Mine is a Marantz SR 8012!!

You certainly have a very capable AVR there.

 

[perzon57]

And oh yeah, I have a Marantz SR8015 so no problems being able to handle that many speakers and then some…

To run that beast with only 5.2.2 is a waste of a good AVR. Go full out with 7.2.4 and wides too!

 

[kap'n krunch]

oh, shit, I guess I got the DUD Marantz! aw, well, my current system is a KILLER!!!
So, these were the options for my room , direct from the Dolby people's page (no, not THOMAS!)
The Equidistant would not work on such a small room so I chose the Orthogonal option...I think I uploaded a pic with the Ortogonal TAPED to the floor in the middle of my room so I could lay the speakers' angles

And here is a "cross eyed method" 3D Stereoscopic pics of the front of my layout but this is just my Polkies...FOR NOW:

 

[RustyStatic]

To run that beast with only 5.2.2 is a waste of a good AVR. Go full out with 7.2.4 and wides too!

Said in my best anime voice (with the quivering eyeballs, for extra emotion): “Is that a CHALLENNNNNNGE?!?!?”

 

[perzon57]

Said in my best anime voice (with the quivering eyeballs, for extra emotion): “Is that a CHALLENNNNNNGE?!?!?”

Not really, but your AVR needs to be tested to it's full capacity.

 

[sjcorne]

Your comment has me wondering, ‘cause I sure don’t wanna miss any tricks.

I'm using matched bookshelf speakers for my 4 heights, mounted on very tall speaker stands (I'm in a rental, so recessed in-ceiling is a no-go). I've managed to tilt them down towards the listening position as much as possible, but it's still kind of hard to tell the difference between the two pairs in the context of the mix (without isolating specific groups of channels) unless it's a really obvious placement, like a loud guitar solo or backing vocal. More often than not--especially when it comes to the streaming-exclusive content--there's little to no content up there.

However--I've noticed Steven Wilson tends to do circular pans around the heights in his Atmos mixes, and you don't quite get the same effect with just two up there. There's also a bit in the xPropaganda album (I think in the song "Chasing Utopia") where four German spoken-word voices appear discretely in each top speaker.

The side surround speakers are interesting as well, I've noticed that many of the streaming-exclusive mixes utilize them far more than the rear surrounds. For instance, the new Harry Styles albums is basically 5.1 with the odd isolated element in the rear surrounds (like the tom-tom rolls in the first track) and reverb in the ceiling. As has been mentioned in other threads, Bruce Soord's vocals in The Pineapple Thief's Nothing But The Truth are mixed entirely to the sides for an interesting almost-binaural 'inside the head' effect.

So yes, there are some fun tricks that come with having the space (and budget) for the extra speakers

 

[Sal1950]

I have been wrestling with the fact that I could put another pair on the ceiling, but the only place I could put them is pretty close to the front L-R pair.

I'd recommend you go for it.
Actually have the front pair in that position is the one recommended for Auro 3D and a setup to use if you best compatibility with both Atmos and Auro.
Check out this pdf setup guide.
One-for-all-Setup-Guide_V5-0_englisch_publishigPUdX9hPlgSJ.pdf
This is roughly the way mine are setup.
I can only add if you expect great results for things like front to back fly-overs, how can that happen with only rear speakers?
Just my .02

 

[RustyStatic]

That does make sense, and I appreciate the input. I don't care too much about movies; am mainly focused on music—I know there aren't that many titles with "fly over" type movements but agree it would be cool to experience all that can be offered. I'm a little limited by the weird physical configuration of the room (it's in an attic with angled ceiling, a dormer, a stairwell directly behind the sweet spot, etc.)... what I have going on is actually exactly what is pictured in the Atmos diagram for 5.1.2 (except I've got a second sub)... I wouldn't be able to accurately reproduce any of the other Atmos diagrams or any of the Auro 3D ones without making some less than ideal compromises.

That kinda gives me pause... not to mention, again, the expense and the aesthetic of the room starting to get a little overrun by speakers popping out all over the place... though I know not everyone would agree with me on that. Maybe if/when we move houses at some point and I'm able to start with a clean slate in a more ideal space...

 

[beerking]

That does make sense, and I appreciate the input. I don't care too much about movies; am mainly focused on music—I know there aren't that many titles with "fly over" type movements but agree it would be cool to experience all that can be offered. I'm a little limited by the weird physical configuration of the room (it's in an attic with angled ceiling, a dormer, a stairwell directly behind the sweet spot, etc.)... what I have going on is actually exactly what is pictured in the Atmos diagram for 5.1.2 (except I've got a second sub)... I wouldn't be able to accurately reproduce any of the other Atmos diagrams or any of the Auro 3D ones without making some less than ideal compromises.

That kinda gives me pause... not to mention, again, the expense and the aesthetic of the room starting to get a little overrun by speakers popping out all over the place... though I know not everyone would agree with me on that. Maybe if/when we move houses at some point and I'm able to start with a clean slate in a more ideal space...

How about this idea for a reconfigured speaker set up.

Perhaps place front height speakers above each window on the TV wall.

Don't have ceiling speakers.

Could a false wall/sheet of wood be placed against the staircase, which would support rear height speakers.

I realise it's asking you to ditch the ceiling speakers but you may get a better effect by using heights in the positions suggested.

I am thoroughly happy with the Atmos effects I get from my heights.

And the wiring can be unobtrusive when using colour coordinated conduits.

 

[RustyStatic]

This has been some great input, and I'm convinced at minimum that 5.2.4 is going to be an upgrade worth doing. Already ordered another pair of Focal Dôme Flax (in white!) to make a front ceiling pair. Basically, as far as Atmos diagrams go (not Auro3D, I definitely can't make any of those work up here), they recommend these configurations (thanks, @Sal1950!):

Where I'm at today matches the 5.1.2 exactly ('cept I'm 5.2.2). Moving to the right, I'm convinced of the 5.2.4 although my placement for the heights will have to be a little different (see below). I think I should still get the benefit. 7.2.4 is the question mark for me though, because I can't move the rears to where the diagram suggests, my room won't allow it (there's a stairwell there). So, that stacks the rears and sides pretty close to one another (like 3'-4') on the same plane (shown below), and that's where I'm wondering if the upgrade is going to make sense (because I'd want another pair of what I'm using for the rears and that, with stands, would run me like another $2500 so it's not a cheap experiment) and if there'd be enough separation to warrant it.

Now, I could create another scenario with more separation but it doesn't align to any suggested placement models...

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[Sal1950]

Now, I could create another scenario with more separation but it doesn't align to any suggested placement models...

I really have no idea if that work but if your current gear (AVR) supports it, maybe you could just borrow a pair of speakers to try the layout? I have absolutely no way in my room for a 7 speaker base system even like your envisioning.
Good luck.

 

[RustyStatic]

I really have no idea if that work but if your current gear (AVR) supports it, maybe you could just borrow a pair of speakers to try the layout? I have absolutely no way in my room for a 7 speaker base system even like your envisioning.
Good luck.

Yeah, that's a really good point—I'm kinda just guessing here, it'd be good to experiment a bit with those sides and just see for myself if it seems (sounds) worth a legit investment. Dunno anyone else with decent equipment around here but even something baseline would give me a sense.

 

[beerking]

Yeah, that's a really good point—I'm kinda just guessing here, it'd be good to experiment a bit with those sides and just see for myself if it seems (sounds) worth a legit investment. Dunno anyone else with decent equipment around here but even something baseline would give me a sense.

Are there any stores, near you, that offer free home trials for speakers?

Or perhaps online?