Atmos Full-Range Discussion

[riskylogic]

Please (mods, I'm being nice ) stop the misinformation. The specs for Dolby Atmos are all full-range (and we've documented it here several times). The recommendation for home bass management is to use 80hz as a crossover if your speakers are not full-range. BIG distinction that needs to be understood.

I'll tell Morten and his numerous Grammies and Gramophones that his Atmos mixes are silly.

See the last sentence in section 2.5.1 and section 2.5.2 above. It is very clear that Dolby expects frequencies in Home Entertainment Systems below 80 HZ to be played back by the subwoofer(s). The fact that auditoriums may go below that is irrelevant: If you are mixing for a home listening environment then going below 80 Hz anywhere besides the front means almost all listeners won't be able to hear it as intended. Yes, that's silly.

 

[ted_b]

See the last sentence in section 2.5.1 and section 2.5.2 above. It is very clear that Dolby expects frequencies in Home Entertainment Systems below 80 HZ to be played back by the subwoofer(s). The fact that auditoriums may go below that is irrelevant: If you are mixing for a home listening environment then going below 80 Hz anywhere besides the front means almost all listeners won't be able to hear it as intended. Yes, that's silly.

Dolby Atmos is full-range, period. But it sounds to me like you are not happy with your system's bass management, and you'd rather mixers and recording engineers just not send low frequencies to anything other than your full-range fronts. That's a problem specific to you. Me, I am grateful that mixers assume that modern AVRs and pre-processors (nevermind raw DXD ) will allow users to direct frequencies that their speakers can't handle to proper speakers/subs that actually can, indeed, handle them. You don't miss anything, unless your bass management has holes.

Get a copy of Booka Shade's new bluray, Dear Future Self (but be careful in your own system; play at low level) and play most any cut, and you'll hear (and feel) low frequency energy from everywhere. It's quite a ride.

 

[AudiophileStyle]

See the last sentence in section 2.5.1 and section 2.5.2 above. It is very clear that Dolby expects frequencies in Home Entertainment Systems below 80 HZ to be played back by the subwoofer(s). The fact that auditoriums may go below that is irrelevant: If you are mixing for a home listening environment then going below 80 Hz anywhere besides the front means almost all listeners won't be able to hear it as intended. Yes, that's silly.

With all due respect, you’re examining the tip of an elephant’s tail (one sentence) and making a proclamation about the entire animal. Taken as a whole, Dolby sets minimum requirements and makes suggestions. I see nothing in any documents I can find that backup your claims.

Time for me to move on with my day, and listen to some music.

 

[himey]

See the last sentence in section 2.5.1 and section 2.5.2 above. It is very clear that Dolby expects frequencies in Home Entertainment Systems below 80 HZ to be played back by the subwoofer(s). The fact that auditoriums may go below that is irrelevant: If you are mixing for a home listening environment then going below 80 Hz anywhere besides the front means almost all listeners won't be able to hear it as intended. Yes, that's silly.

Stop it please!
Edit.
This is worse than when you proclaimed that there was only one good song in your The Wall movie review! Haha.

 

[riskylogic]

Stop it please!
Edit.
This is worse than when you proclaimed that there was only one good song in your The Wall movie review! Haha.

OK, two good songs. But to stay on topic, I think there is a case to be made for having four subwoofers or full range speakers at the corners. I've already made the argument that it doesn't make sense from a music business standpoint to mix for systems that people don't have. But also, from a consumer perspective it doesn't make sense to spend a lot of extra money on hardware when for most recordings it won't make any difference.

 

[himey]

OK, two good songs. But to stay on topic, I think there is a case to be made for having four subwoofers or full range speakers at the corners. I've already made the argument that it doesn't make sense from a music business standpoint to mix for systems that people don't have. But also, from a consumer perspective it doesn't make sense to spend a lot of extra money on hardware when for most recordings it won't make any difference.

No audio mixing engineers in their right mind, mix to the lowest common denominator.

 

[riskylogic]

No audio mixing engineers in their right mind, mix to the lowest common denominator.

But still, there's always a target audience. I figure the loudness wars came about because the recording industry started mastering for earbuds. I don't like it, but I understand it.

 

[MidiMagic]

Damn, that was a quick 180. Some of us were trying to get you to understand. Large speakers for every channel should always be the goal, even knowing it can't always be realized. Bass management is a necessary evil for music reproduction. Bass management and sub crawling serves home theatres and should be avoided as much as possible for music.

Then there is no space left in the room for me. Have to duck to enter or leave the room (the alternative being lumps in the floor above).

 

[himey]

But still, there's always a target audience. I figure the loudness wars came about because the recording industry started mastering for earbuds. I don't like it, but I understand it.

Atmos mixes are dynamic.

 

[mandrix]

As to top or ceiling speakers with good bass response: (forgive the late response)

So my base 5.1 speakers are a "matched" set I bought some years ago, after reading a review on a site popular with many in the AVR forum crowd, including myself at the time.

As we know, normally when you don't include a sub, a speaker setup program, including Dirac, will set your fronts at full range. But Dirac also sets my rear surrounds at 50 Hz. In a 5.1 setup with sub, it will set all (my) corner speakers at 40 Hz. These are not very large speakers, about 13 Lbs each. But they have amazing low end response.

Formerly, in a larger room the rears were mounted high by necessity, on heavy duty swivel mounts that allow also for vertical adjustment. The mounts I believe are rated for up to 26 Lb speakers. (I once stated 30 Lbs which is not correct) I still use them today in my audio/pc room, although for lighter speakers.

So I'm saying, should I have more of these speakers, which I don't, I could easily mount them and use them for top speakers.
In fact two of my top speakers are mounted on these swivel mounts, albeit up on the wall, while the other two are mounted directly on the ceiling.

One does not need a huge speaker to have decent bass response. Whether your listening habits dictate a need for a much larger speaker is your call.,

 

[mandrix]

I should have added to my lengthy article above, that Dirac sets my rear surrounds crossover at 50 Hz in a 7.1.4 Atmos setup for completeness. The 40 Hz setting only comes into play when I tested as a 5.1 setup..

I would love to have some speakers with a better low end response, other than my base 5.1 speakers, to place as top speakers to see if there is an improvement in sound, or even to see how the Dirac system adjusts the crossovers.

As it is, like many I would love to have better speakers, especially for my top speakers, but as it is I'm fairly satisfied with what I have at present. What I want most is better Atmos mixes. I feel that some
just can't get away from what I call that Phil Spector "wall of sound"from the fronts. A Question Of Balance?

 

[TheGreatRamseythe2nd]

Atmos mixes are dynamic.

Most are. Some are totally brickwalled.

 

[AudiophileStyle]

Most are. Some are totally brickwalled.

Do you have any brick walled examples?

Apple requires this:

• All deliverables MUST achieve a True Peak measurement that does not exceed -1 dBTP.
• For individual tracks, all deliverables MUST achieve an integrated Dolby Atmos loudness that does not exceed -18 LKFS, based on ITU Recommendation BS.1770-4.

 

[himey]

Most are. Some are totally brickwalled.

Name two?

 

[mandrix]

Do you have any brick walled examples?

Apple requires this:

• All deliverables MUST achieve a True Peak measurement that does not exceed -1 dBTP.
• For individual tracks, all deliverables MUST achieve an integrated Dolby Atmos loudness that does not exceed -18 LKFS, based on ITU Recommendation BS.1770-4.

I wish the Tidal stuff were at least -18 LUFS consistently. They seem to be all over the place. Don't know about Apple.

 

[himey]

I wish the Tidal stuff were at least -18 LUFS consistently. They seem to be all over the place. Don't know about Apple.

Once I decoded the new Peter Gabriel track from Tidal, added gain, and converted it to 4.0.4, the resulting flac file is DR17. Adding the correct gain, especially for full albums takes a few passes. The Talking Heads albums vary a lot from track to track for some odd reason.

 

[mandrix]

Once I decoded the new Peter Gabriel track from Tidal, added gain, and converted it to 4.0.4, the resulting flac file is DR17. Adding the correct gain, especially for full albums takes a few passes. The Talking Heads albums vary a lot from track to track for some odd reason.

Yes. Some others as well but my short term memory sucks. Bitstreaming should be bitstreaming but sometimes I notice a volume difference between VLC and PowerDVD that puzzles me. This is playing MP4/M4A Atmos from Tidal....and yes I always leave VLC output @ 100%.

 

[TheGreatRamseythe2nd]

Name two?

Ambra Prism of Life
Lichtmond The Journey
Matt Darey Wolf
Matt Darey Retrospective

 

[AudiophileStyle]

Ambra Prism of Life
Lichtmond The Journey
Matt Darey Wolf
Matt Darey Retrospective

Perhaps we have a different defintiion of brickwalled. That's OK. Here is the track Wolf from Matt Darey, followed by That Was Just Your Life from Metallica's Death Magnetic, for comparison of what I consider brickwalled.

 

[himey]

Matt Darey Wolf

DR12 on the first track...