Beaver and Krause Gandharva Japanese QS LP Report

[Owen Smith]

A discrete version will exist because all Quad matrix versions will be made from a discrete quad master.

That is definitely not true. Buddy Rich Live on King Street was recorded direct into a 16 position SQ encoder to stereo master tape, and monitored live using a Tate SQ decoder to check the encoding was correct. No discrete quad master exists. There are probably other albums that were recorded or mixed in that sort of way, but for that album we know for sure.

 

[Owen Smith]

I'll also point out that with SQ position encoders having 8 and later 16 inputs for the different positions, you don't want a discrete quad master tape since that only has 4 channels obviously. When SQ is encoded with a position encoder you either need an 8 or 16 position master tape, or more likely you mix direct to SQ encoded stereo either live or from the original multi tracks.

 

[par4ken]

I'll also point out that with SQ position encoders having 8 and later 16 inputs for the different positions, you don't want a discrete quad master tape since that only has 4 channels obviously. When SQ is encoded with a position encoder you either need an 8 or 16 position master tape, or more likely you mix direct to SQ encoded stereo either live or from the original multi tracks.

As I understand it a discrete mix was simultaneously derived from the position encoder along with the SQ encode. So in the case of the position encoder the SQ mix was not simply an encode of a discrete mix.

 

[Owen Smith]

As I understand it a discrete mix was simultaneously derived from the position encoder along with the SQ encode. So in the case of the position encoder the SQ mix was not simply an encode of a discrete mix.

That makes sense.

 

[MidiMagic]

So let me get this straight. All three Beaver & Krause WB albums have dedicated quad mixes: In a Wild Sanctuary is a Dyna-encoded LP, but this is not acknowledged on the jacket or label; Gandharva was issued in SQ in Japan; and All Good Men has a stealth EV encode -- or maybe it doesn't.

All of those would have to be stealth, because WB chose CD-4.

 

[par4ken]

All of those would have to be stealth, because WB chose CD-4.

Before WB in the US chose CD-4 they had released many recordings in Japan in QS and SQ. I love to see that SQ logo on a Warner Bros. label! On Atlantic too!

View attachment 109686

 

[barfle]

Why would a major record label spend money on encoding something in quad and then not tell anyone ? Time to end this discussion I think...

I can think of a reason. Quad confused the buying public. A lot of people remembered the double stocking of mono and stereo, and they weren’t completely compatible, so plenty of people felt that the quad and stereo versions would not be compatible. But to make double inventory was also expensive, so to reduce cost and confusion, they only produced one mix, and relied on word of mouth to get the niche sales.

Unlike you, I don’t work in the recording industry, so that’s speculation on my part, but I’ve heard that story from people who would know.

 

[Owen Smith]

And sometimes the record companies said they were ditching quad, or only wanted CD-4 or whatever, but the recording engineers and/or the artists were keen on quad so they just made it in matrix quad without telling anyone.

 

[MidiMagic]

That is definitely not true. Buddy Rich Live on King Street was recorded direct into a 16 position SQ encoder to stereo master tape, and monitored live using a Tate SQ decoder to check the encoding was correct. No discrete quad master exists. There are probably other albums that were recorded or mixed in that sort of way, but for that album we know for sure.

See posts above. Gandharva was only issued in QS in Japan. All other issues are plain non

A discrete version will exist because all Quad matrix versions will be made from a discrete quad master.

Not necessarily true. I have made many recordings of various local bands, and I NEVER made a discrete master.

I mixed the recordings directly down to QS/DS using a matrix encoder insert in submasters 3 and 4.

Ignore the center top encoding, as it required other equipment.

Doesn't exist.

There is no way to prove something doesn't exist.

Before WB in the US chose CD-4 they had released many recordings in Japan in QS and SQ. I love to see that SQ logo on a Warner Bros. label! On Atlantic too!

View attachment 109686

Actually, I was servicing jukeboxes before CD-4 was in use by any other than JVC. I often got to keep some of the records that were taken out of the jukeboxes. I have a few marked QUADRAPHONIC that were made for the Seeburg quadraphonic jukeboxes. They are essentially in Dynaquad. Some of those are WB. This was the decoder (inside the jukebox):

 

[ForagingRhino]

Just to set the record straight, there are actual quad masters for both Gandharva and now, thanks to Robert Orban, All Good Men in the Warner Vault.
The plan is to have these issued as a two-fer Quadio next year.
Both albums on one disc. Seems like their best shot.

 

[4-earredwonder]

Just to set the record straight, there are actual quad masters for both Gandharva and now, thanks to Robert Orban, All Good Men in the Warner Vault.
The plan is to have these issued as a two-fer Quadio next year.
Both albums on one disc. Seems like their best shot.

Excellent, Steve! BTW, has anyone at RHINO determined whether Beaver & Krause’s IN A WILD SANCTUARY is a ‘stealth’ QUAD….possibly SQ matrixed?

Hopefully, you will likewise issue more two~fers in the coming years to take advantage of Blu~ray’s pretty impressive real estate.

 

[ForagingRhino]

No quad of Sanctuary.

 

[jaybird100]

I can think of a reason. Quad confused the buying public. A lot of people remembered the double stocking of mono and stereo, and they weren’t completely compatible, so plenty of people felt that the quad and stereo versions would not be compatible. But to make double inventory was also expensive, so to reduce cost and confusion, they only produced one mix, and relied on word of mouth to get the niche sales.

Unlike you, I don’t work in the recording industry, so that’s speculation on my part, but I’ve heard that story from people who would know.

 

[jaybird100]

Mono and stereo records were kept separate because, until about 1968, stereo records could be severely damaged if played with the wrong type of cartridge and stylus. Compatible mono cartridges came later. Stereo, and matrix quad, records didn't need a different cartridge, and were cross-compatible. CD-4 threw another fly into the proverbial ointment. While they claimed to be playable on stereo systems, there was no guarantee that they'd play properly in quad afterward. There had been talk within the industry about going single inventory with compatible stereo and quad records. Only a few labels actually did that. Had quad not "faded into the sunset" when it allegedly did, at least matrix-encoded records could have been released as a single inventory entity.

 

[par4ken]

Excellent, Steve! BTW, has anyone at RHINO determined whether Beaver & Krause’s IN A WILD SANCTUARY is a ‘stealth’ QUAD….possibly SQ matrixed?

Definitely not SQ, The suggestion is that it is DynaQuad. Or as I suggest, more likely a bit of out of phase information simply added to the stereo mix either to experiment with the "quad" effect, or to broaden the stereo image. No encoder is required for that. MidiMagic has been making his own recordings that way for years. Less likely It's "quadieness" could also just be a happy accident.

So with no real discrete quad existing we will have to play the "stereo" through a quad or dolby decoder.

Here is a link to the Gately DynaQuad ENCODER as you can see there is almost nothing to it!

 

[Aging quadie]

Just to set the record straight, there are actual quad masters for both Gandharva and now, thanks to Robert Orban, All Good Men in the Warner Vault.
The plan is to have these issued as a two-fer Quadio next year.
Both albums on one disc. Seems like their best shot.

Wonderful! Please involve Bernie Krause in this release. Even if he's not directly involved in the digital transfer, he can contribute invaluable liner notes to these technically complex productions.