Is 5.1 Really the Correct Format for Surround Music?

[himey]

The fact is with a subwoofer there is greater separation between the bass drum and the bass guitar. On 2.0 systems they are almost impossible to hear separately. As a bass player I worship my subwoofer.

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What element do you think is the magical ingredient in a subwoofer design that gives you this seperation between instruments that a top of the line, full range speaker can't acomplish? ...or is it all about placement in your opinion.

 

[John Svensson]

Ah, Hamburg 1961.....those were the days.....

 

[seilerbird]

What element do you think is the magical ingredient in a subwoofer design that gives you this seperation between instruments that a top of the line, full range speaker can't acomplish? ...or is it all about placement in your opinion.

In a 2.0 system you have everything coming out of two speakers and things get muddy. Separating the bass gives the speaker much less work to do.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

In a 2.0 system you have everything coming out of two speakers and things get muddy. Separating the bass gives the speaker much less work to do.

I think that is a highly simplistic argument.

 

[ar surround]

The fact is with a subwoofer there is greater separation between the bass drum and the bass guitar. On 2.0 systems they are almost impossible to hear separately. As a bass player I worship my subwoofer.

Taking the movie LFE track out of the equation, could one not achieve the same results from music using speaker bi-amplification? This would assume that one can amplify the woofers separately from the other drivers, and that the speaker crossovers are designed for bi-amplification. It seems to to me that given a very large speaker system with low end response down to 20 Hz, the limiting factor becomes amplifier power. Granted, adding a subwoofer frees the main power amp from handling low frequencies, so that fact may have as much to do with the better response than the adding a subwoofer to a sound system already employing giant speakers.

(I bring up this question because my speakers are capable of bi-amplification. However I've never tried it because I already have too much equipment and wires. I've also been told that one must use identical power amps with bi-amplification to avoid potential havoc with what comes out of the speaker crossovers...one amp pushing while the other pulling so to speak.)

 

[seilerbird]

Taking the movie LFE track out of the equation, could one not achieve the same results from music using speaker bi-amplification? This would assume that one can amplify the woofers separately from the other drivers, and that the speaker crossovers are designed for bi-amplification. It seems to to me that given a very large speaker system with low end response down to 20 Hz, the limiting factor becomes amplifier power. Granted, adding a subwoofer frees the main power amp from handling low frequencies, so that fact may have as much to do with the better response than the adding a subwoofer to a sound system already employing giant speakers.

(I bring up this question because my speakers are capable of bi-amplification. However I've never tried it because I already have too much equipment and wires. I've also been told that one must use identical power amps with bi-amplification to avoid potential havoc with what comes out of the speaker crossovers...one amp pushing while the other pulling so to speak.)

Yep I think it is basically the same thing as biamping. I don't know how your system would sound that way, you would just have to try it to find out.

 

[seilerbird]

I think that is a highly simplistic argument.

Well I guess I should come up with a highly technical over dramatized argument.

 

[himey]

Yep I think it is basically the same thing as biamping. I don't know how your system would sound that way, you would just have to try it to find out.

Biamping and using the sub out and bass management is not the same thing.

 

[himey]

Well I guess I should come up with a highly technical over dramatized argument.

There isn't an argument, subs are equal and not better than full range speakers. The room and the system dictates which will sound better.

 

[Guy Robinson]

If multiple subs are implemented correctly in a room i would like to see a system without a sub that has the same quality of bass.

 

[himey]

Taking the movie LFE track out of the equation, could one not achieve the same results from music using speaker bi-amplification? This would assume that one can amplify the woofers separately from the other drivers, and that the speaker crossovers are designed for bi-amplification. It seems to to me that given a very large speaker system with low end response down to 20 Hz, the limiting factor becomes amplifier power. Granted, adding a subwoofer frees the main power amp from handling low frequencies, so that fact may have as much to do with the better response than the adding a subwoofer to a sound system already employing giant speakers.

(I bring up this question because my speakers are capable of bi-amplification. However I've never tried it because I already have too much equipment and wires. I've also been told that one must use identical power amps with bi-amplification to avoid potential havoc with what comes out of the speaker crossovers...one amp pushing while the other pulling so to speak.)

Unless you feel there is some deficiency in your speakers crossovers and you definitely have a lack of power, I would suggest not biamping but upgrading the amp for the entire speaker. Biamping is mostly used with an electronic crossover and matching amps are not the norm. Large powerful solid state amp for low end, tube amp for rest of spectrum. Now with high power quality amps that are affordable, biamping has lost most of its appeal.

 

[himey]

If multiple subs are implemented correctly in a room i would like to see a system without a sub that has the same quality of bass.

It would take some expensive speakers for sure. I would love to hear that too. No reason the full range speakers won't go as low. Amps are powerful these days, nothing magical about a sub box.

 

[Guy Robinson]

It would take some expensive speakers for sure. I would love to hear that too. No reason the full range speakers won't go as low. Amps are powerful these days, nothing magical about a sub box.

The two I have are. At least in my house in my 12 x 17 room. For music and movies. I'm talking 5.1 music of course not stereo. I never listen to anything in stereo.

 

[LuvMyQuad]

If multiple subs are implemented correctly in a room i would like to see a system without a sub that has the same quality of bass.

I definitely agree with this statement. I haven't been shopping for full range speakers quite some time, so maybe things have changed some (if so, please let me know). But it seems even relatively large "full range" designs are very limited in output below 40Hz. On the other hand, it is common for a quality sub to produce frequencies in the mid 20Hz range and lower. So I believe a sub equipped system can usually outperform a full range speaker when it comes to extending into that extremely low range. That being said, I doubt I have more than 2 or 3 pieces of program media that can actually take advantage of that. But its the ability to position the higher frequency drivers for best imaging while positioning the low frequency driver for smoothest response in a given room that is the big advantage. Even the best full range behemoths cannot do that. And this holds true regardless of the number of channels. Being able to then apply DSP or EQ to that low bass signal to further help with the room response is the icing on the cake.

 

[ar surround]

Unless you feel there is some deficiency in your speakers crossovers and you definitely have a lack of power, I would suggest not biamping but upgrading the amp for the entire speaker. Biamping is mostly used with an electronic crossover and matching amps are not the norm. Large powerful solid state amp for low end, tube amp for rest of spectrum. Now with high power quality amps that are affordable, biamping has lost most of its appeal.

I agree, Himey. Fortunately, I don't feel that my system lacks power and I am extremely happy with the bass response. Also, I have never found bi-amping appealing. But you know how it goes with this hobby - there is no end to the amount of money one can spend on equipment...with diminishing returns. When Harvey Electronics was still in business, a couple of salesmen were debating the number of subwoofers required for balanced low frequency sound. One said two subs were enough while the other insisted on four placed at strategic points around the room. So I compromised and went with none. LOL The salesman who was pushing the four subs also seriously said that I should try to find another one of my front tower speakers and hang it from the ceiling as the center speaker.

What I did do was buy a processor that allows me to route the subwoofer channel to all four tower speakers. In certain modes, it also allows me to route the bass response to the surrounds as well as the fronts thus yielding something nearing the four subwoofer effect. Sometimes it sounds good, sometimes it doesn't. I call it A Poor Man's Sub-woofer. (Hey, only about a month left until the release of BJH Gone To Earth!)

 

[Kal Rubinson]

Granted, adding a subwoofer frees the main power amp from handling low frequencies, so that fact may have as much to do with the better response than the adding a subwoofer to a sound system already employing giant speakers.

Adding a subwoofer also permits it to be placed optimally for bass (and not soundstage) and to be properly EQ-ed.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

Well I guess I should come up with a highly technical over dramatized argument.

Or mebbe something with more than a generalized assertion.

 

[ssully]

How so? What is the feature in a sub that a full range monitor doesn't acomplish?

Most 'full range' monitors...aren't.

 

[ssully]

Unless you feel there is some deficiency in your speakers crossovers and you definitely have a lack of power, I would suggest not biamping but upgrading the amp for the entire speaker. Biamping is mostly used with an electronic crossover and matching amps are not the norm. Large powerful solid state amp for low end, tube amp for rest of spectrum. Now with high power quality amps that are affordable, biamping has lost most of its appeal.

Any system with a powered sub is a biamped system. They remain extremely popular.

 

[wavelength]

Any system with a powered sub is a biamped system.

In any literature I've read about bi-amping, the sub has nothing to do with it.