King Crimson - Heaven & Earth box set (18CD / 4 BD-A / 2 DVD-A)

[H.A.L.]

Word has it they'll have a download available soon with the speed corrected versions of the affected tracks.[they wrongly mastered the tracks on the Blu ray at 44.1 thus the speed problem]

For such a pricey set, you'd think they would let us return the bad disc and mail us a new one!

 

[Albert Dagger]

Word has it they'll have a download available soon with the speed corrected versions of the affected tracks.[they wrongly mastered the tracks on the Blu ray at 44.1 thus the speed problem]

Yep, download code. Here’s the official response from DGM:
https://www.dgmlive.com/news/Heaven_and_earth
I appreciate they have addressed the issue quite fast, but I don’t like such wordy comments. Yes, we do hear the difference in speed and pitch...

 

[H.A.L.]

I appreciate they have addressed the issue quite fast, but I don’t like such wordy comments. Yes, we do hear the difference in speed and pitch...

Given Fripp's notorious fussiness -- I'm not going overboard here, am I? -- you'd expect less excuses and a more concrete fix. Remember that Jethro Tull snafu? They had a replacement disc available for a mail-in, and that must have cost a bit for a not so expensive box. Here we get a sniffy response for an expensive box and a measly download. Of course, it may involve more than one disc. What are the exact snafu-ed tracks, and on which discs?

 

[JediJoker]

Yep, download code. Here’s the official response from DGM:
https://www.dgmlive.com/news/Heaven_and_earth

So, the DVD-As may not be affected, given that they can be authored to 44.1kHz... But they may have been authored at 48kHz just like the Blu-rays and therefore would suffer the same issue.

But now that they're providing a download, which is not bound by disc specs, why not just provide it in the original 44.kHz sampling rate? Why bother converting to 48kHz when unnecessary? DFWAB.

 

[Albert Dagger]

So, the DVD-As may not be affected, given that they can be authored to 44.1kHz... But they may have been authored at 48kHz just like the Blu-rays and therefore would suffer the same issue.

But now that they're providing a download, which is not bound by disc specs, why not just provide it in the original 44.kHz sampling rate? Why bother converting to 48kHz when unnecessary? DFWAB.

Exactly, why bother converting to 48kHz. Perhaps to conform to the standard of what should have been on the blu Ray, it correctly authored.

By the way, I’m still trying to understand the extent of the problem. I don’t have the box here with me as I’m travelling. Is it only the blu rays of the projeKcts or also the DVDs?

 

[jimfisheye]

I thought bluray was supposed to support 44.1k? I am aware though that some authoring apps will grey out 44.1k audio if you try to import it. Hmmm...

Anyway... Sounds like it's some of the Project 2 stuff and a couple other Project shows and all stuff that was 44.1k 2-track only. So, not the 5.1 mix of Heaven and Earth!

I'm not going to go 'customer from hell' on Amazon.uk either. Got to save those cards for more serious cases! I was very clearly being a cheap bastard in shopping for this.


I use tsMuxeR to author bluray images (being a cheap bastard as mentioned who can't afford the $1200 software authoring suites) and it blocks 44.1k audio import too.

 

[JediJoker]

I thought bluray was supposed to support 44.1k? I am aware though that some authoring apps will grey out 44.1k audio if you try to import it. Hmmm...

I use tsMuxeR to author bluray images (being a cheap bastard as mentioned who can't afford the $1200 software authoring suites) and it blocks 44.1k audio import too.

I believe the only rates in the Blu-Ray spec are multiples of 48kHz (48/96/192), which makes sense, given that it's a video-first format.

 

[DuncanS]

So 44.1kHz is not supported. Though I think quite a few Universal Players will accept 44.1kHz on a BDA

 

[JediJoker]

View attachment 40922
So 44.1kHz is not supported. Though I think quite a few Universal Players will accept 44.1kHz on a BDA

Probably. Just because something's not in spec doesn't mean it won't work. It's just not going to get (in this case) Blu-ray Disc Association approval for commercial release as a Blu-ray carrying all official logos.

 

[rtbluray]

At the risk of stirring up a nest of hornets (more-so on SHTV than on here) I must say that after learning about these audio blunders I went back and checked out both of the ProjeKct Blu-Rays again and once again whatever other people are hearing goes completely over my own head.

I agree with David Singleton's comment below:

This particular error, where a very small proportion of the music is slightly faster than the original, would not concern the majority of music lovers. Hence evidently the reason that none of our testers spotted it. It was, I believe, first spotted by a fan doing a computer comparision, not by the human ear.

Before getting these Blu-ray Discs to test, I was aware of the ProjeKcts but I had not heard any of the material, so I was completely unfamiliar with what I was hearing on these two Blu-ray Discs. For those of you who have heard the ProjeKcts before, you will know that it is some of the most extremely improvised and uncommercial material that has ever come from King Crimson, so to me, it would make sense that I would not hear anything out of the ordinary because the material itself is really out of the ordinary, and that's really saying something for King Crimson!

It would have been a lot easier for me to spot audio blunders (had they existed) on Blu-ray Disc 3, which contains "The ReConstruKction of Light" and "The Power to Believe", plus all of the relevant EP and live material from that time.

So I understand that there might be a few on here that are disappointed with such errors, but like David said, most people will be able to enjoy the content without hearing such issues. Plus all of the surround content is error-free, and that should really be all we on QQ are concerned about.

 

[timbre4]

I've been a King Crimson fan for 45 years and I "canonize the ground they walk upon". However... I didn't find anything out of kilter as the Projeckt material is much less familiar to me; in fact, it was brand new to me in parts. Couple that with the improvisational nature of these shows (familiar hooks? kind of) and it becomes an amazing journey. I'll spare you the rest for now and put it in the eventual poll post.

The technical review (navigation, index, visuals, buttons, groups, pointers) was a bit longer than usual but it checked out with a few corrections. It was the listening tests that took much, much more time but never turned up anything wrong for me. Please don't ever take any of this as a complaint, it remains a privilege to be involved. I just wanted to comment on the unusual scope of this mission, and for there to be any kind of issue after all that time listening, is disappointing. At the same time, I could live with it like it is and honestly never know the difference with this material. YMMV

That's all I've got, hopefully we learn more very soon.

 

[Albert Dagger]

I appreciate your comments guys, and I agree with your points of view. However, those tracks are sped up by about 8%, if I’m not wrong, and that is unacceptable, despite its audibility by the average or expert user. I’m happy to hear they’ll provide a download code, but they should have just said: sorry, we made a small mistake, we’ll find a solution. Instead of that wordy announcement that tries to justify a mistake. There’s nothing to explain. Say sorry and move on. That’s my take, and is purely related to the tone of the announcement.

 

[jimfisheye]

KC are the absolute leaders in box sets!
Sounds like they made a human mistake and are correcting it as best as possible.

That statement from David Singleton about "the average listener would never notice" is unfortunately cringy (to be kind). A speed change from playing 44.1k content at 48k would be a very apparent and glaring speed/pitch change. You'd have to have no musical ear at all and not be able to even identify the key of a song to have something like that fly by you! I'm thinking the KC audience has a high percentage of musicians.

If you didn't hear anything wrong, then you didn't get one of the defective sets.

 

[timbre4]

KC are the absolute leaders in box sets!
Sounds like they made a human mistake and are correcting it as best as possible.

That statement from David Singleton about "the average listener would never notice" is unfortunately cringy (to be kind).
If you didn't hear anything wrong, then you didn't get one of the defective sets.

Disagree. As I tried to explain earlier, this was a highly unusual undertaking. I’m a 45 year KC fan, musician but less familiar with this offshoot material than the standard composed songs burned into our memories. Without vocals and there being substantial improvisation involved, there’s precious little to latch onto for reference. Can you point me to an example that is obvious to you?

 

[jimfisheye]

I agree if you're hearing it for the first time then it's in the key it's in and you'd be none the wiser (As long as we're not in chipmunk or Ent territory). You'll notice if something is "in the cracks" I suppose but it will simply be what it is.

If you are familiar with a piece of music however, the very first thing you will say is "Hey this is in a different key!" "Is this the same version? What's going on here?!"

 

[timbre4]

I agree if you're hearing it for the first time then it's in the key it's in and you'd be none the wiser (As long as we're not in chipmunk or Ent territory).
If you are familiar with a piece of music however, the very first thing you will say is "Hey this is in a different key!" "Is this the same version? What's going on here?!"

Absolutely agree with this; no chipmunk factor in strictly instrumental music to be obvious.

 

[marpow]

My King Crimson Heaven & Earth Box set arrived in CA from the UK today. Holy, wow, the box was absolutely destroyed like it fell off the truck opened, and got taped back together, open holes, horrible, worst package ever in my whole life, I was so dissapointed knowing I would have to return what was inside because of damage, holy wow, not a scratch or dent, all corners good. To be honest I cant even understand, but at least I don't have to return back to UK.

 

[marpow]

Diving into this massive box set this weekend, watching the Blu Ray videos now. Read some of the liner notes last night, trying to get a feel for everything, a bit overwhelming, different gigs, personal, live vs studio, Projecxts vs King Crimson, improv recordings. I have been studying KC for about 3 weeks now and certainly is not easy to grasp the entire body of work.
I certainly am not worrying about the speed change as I wouldn't be able to notice the difference as I am a newcomer.
I have many box sets and this is the best value for money, it is #1 vs Rush box sets are the worst value for your money.
I am not willing to say I am a KC fan yet but I am highly intrigued. They are coming to The Fox in Oakland two nights Sept 5&6. I think I will go to one of the shows for my musical education.

 

[marpow]

I decided to listen to some random live recordings from Blu Ray Disc 22 The Projekcts Vol II Stereo 16/48 The Complete Live Recordings by: Projekcts Two.
I am surprised that they are actually surround in DTS-HD MSTR Dolby Surround 16/48. Or are they 24/48? Anyway Disc 22 is discrete in surround.

 

[jimfisheye]

Hmmm... After getting the bait and switch from Amazon with the Floyd Saucerful of Secrets mono vinyl (and after waiting 2 months) I'm wondering if I should just cancel this one from Amazon UK and just pay the extra $60 more to DGM.