Lou Dorren: A new CD-4 Demodulator!!! [ARCHIVE]

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Hello Aludra,

Mike, The input impedance of the preamplifier will accommodate all cartridges from moving coil, moving magnet, moving iron, strain gage semiconductor, and photo pickup semiconductor.

The argument that I had with the Technics engineers went like this: When I had disclosed to JVC and Technics/Panasonic about the Phase Lock Loop technology that I had developed for the CD-4 system, we were in a negotiation phase for them to use the development. I had filed a patent application, which made it patent pending. When a patent is pending, no one can get a copy of it unless you are with the patent office or, the owner of the patent discloses it. I was prepared and eventually did disclose the information when the negotiations were completed (took 1.5 years). At that time the only semiconductor company making PLL chips was Signetics. So the engineers for JVC and Technics/Panasonic figured that they could get around my invention by using the NE565 PLL chip. What the did not know was that the PLL chip alone would not solve the problem. Then came the bailing wire, chewing gum, and band aids. First was AGC (Automatic Gain Control of the 30 KHz carrier). That didn't work. Then came high gain amplifiers for the carrier. That also did not work. Finally, they came up with carrier process control which consisted of carrier crosstalk nulling and manual carrier level control. This actually gave some performance to the Technics SH340 and the JVC 4DD5. This, however, was not the correct solution to the problem. The following is right out of installment III, soon to be available. "A PLL detector is just another FM detector. It's major advantage over discriminators, Ratio Detectors, and Quadrature Phase Detectors is that it is more linear (lower distortion) than the others. All of these detectors suffer from the same problem. They want a constant carrier level with no variations(incidental Amplitude Modulation)." The PLL is a little more robust, which is why the SH340 and the 4DD5 can give some CD-4 performance. The real answer is a very high gain 100dB limiting amplifier, which removes all amplitude variations of the 30 KHZ carrier. The small drop in carrier level from outer to inner diameter of the disc is insignificant and is never seen by the detector because of the limiter.

Hope this answers your question

Lou Dorren
 
Hello QQ people,

It is early in the morning here and I just finished mixing a track for one of the artists on my record label.

Kirk, thanks for the heads up about Wikipedia. I hate technodrival more than most. It is now fixed!

Jon, As good as the 4DD5. Circuit is quite similar.

Lou Dorren
 
Hello to all,
Since it does not affect the design except for two holes and a couple of RCA jacks, I will include a direct output for left and right at line level. This will also give any that want a great phono preamplifier. You all contributed to this design addition, so I will call it the QQ Forum Direct Stereo Output! Thanks Cai, Tad,!!

Alaudra,
Mike, No carrier level controls, no AGC. All unnecessary! The problem with your other request is the R.I.A.A. eq. At half speed with the standard curve, severe overload at the low frequencies would occur. Adding switchable R.I.A.A. eq curves creates a mess with the preamplifier. Sorry.

Quadfather,

The new ebay listing for the remaining 9 test records is 330202788081.

Lou Dorren

Lou,
You haven't mentioned who is making the supplied catridge. Will we be able to buy replcement styli for it now and 20 years down the road?
Also, in a later post you mentioned you are mixing for your own label. Can we expect some new CD4 records?????
On a different note, I got my CD4 test record. Thanks! HOWEVER (I know you're busy working on our new demodulator,but), you didn't autograph it as I asked. :>(
 
I have read every post to this thread and must say I am impressed with all the suggestions posed to and adopted by Mr. Dorren. Makes me proud to be a member. Aside from all the discussion of specifications and performance, I am delighted that most, if not all, controls will be located in the escutcheon/front panel. Set one of these new units aside for me.

I anxiuosly await your third installment.

David
 
Hello Aludra,

Mike, The input impedance of the preamplifier will accommodate all cartridges from moving coil, moving magnet, moving iron, strain gage semiconductor, and photo pickup semiconductor.

The argument that I had with the Technics engineers went like this: When I had disclosed to JVC and Technics/Panasonic about the Phase Lock Loop technology that I had developed for the CD-4 system, we were in a negotiation phase for them to use the development. I had filed a patent application, which made it patent pending. When a patent is pending, no one can get a copy of it unless you are with the patent office or, the owner of the patent discloses it. I was prepared and eventually did disclose the information when the negotiations were completed (took 1.5 years). At that time the only semiconductor company making PLL chips was Signetics. So the engineers for JVC and Technics/Panasonic figured that they could get around my invention by using the NE565 PLL chip. What the did not know was that the PLL chip alone would not solve the problem. Then came the bailing wire, chewing gum, and band aids. First was AGC (Automatic Gain Control of the 30 KHz carrier). That didn't work. Then came high gain amplifiers for the carrier. That also did not work. Finally, they came up with carrier process control which consisted of carrier crosstalk nulling and manual carrier level control. This actually gave some performance to the Technics SH340 and the JVC 4DD5. This, however, was not the correct solution to the problem. The following is right out of installment III, soon to be available. "A PLL detector is just another FM detector. It's major advantage over discriminators, Ratio Detectors, and Quadrature Phase Detectors is that it is more linear (lower distortion) than the others. All of these detectors suffer from the same problem. They want a constant carrier level with no variations(incidental Amplitude Modulation)." The PLL is a little more robust, which is why the SH340 and the 4DD5 can give some CD-4 performance. The real answer is a very high gain 100dB limiting amplifier, which removes all amplitude variations of the 30 KHZ carrier. The small drop in carrier level from outer to inner diameter of the disc is insignificant and is never seen by the detector because of the limiter.

Hope this answers your question

Lou Dorren

You mention the JVC 4-DD5 and the SH 340. I can't find a reference to a Technics piece with that designation. Did you mean the 400?
 
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Heck, with all the vinyl resurrection that is going now, can we expect some CD4 LP in 2009? Maybe finally Asylum will release "Desperado" in quad!!! So the BSM crowd will be pleased...
 
Hello Steadfast Quadraphonic Supporters,

Surroundophile, Still a secret, plenty of styli (life time supply). I would love to say more CD-4 records coming, but alas, there is no mastering machines left. However, something new is in the wind! TAAS!!! Sorry about the autograph, send it back and I will.

Decoderman,

David, Thanks for the kind words.

res4278, The SH340 was one of the first CD-4 demodulators from Technics. I will see if I have a picture in the archive.

Callmez, Hang in there Mark

winopener, As I wrote to surroundophile, TAAS!!! Soon.


People, Over the holidays I took some time to refurbish some Quad equipment to excellent working condition. I talked to Jon about this because I wanted the QQ fans to have first dibs and he said it would be fine. I will put them up on ebay with all information and list the item number in this forum. There will be 3 or 4 great Quad items.

Lou Dorren
 
By the way - to Winopener - and as "nice pastime" - by waiting for the new demodulator: The actual surround-situation with SA-CD and DVD-Audio is some more annoyed(ing) as with Quadraphony in the 70's (because the digital-technic is some more easy to handle). And meanwhile there is again a (little) Boomit with new 2-channel LP's, it would be a really sensation, when we could have also CD-4 records from actual artists like Madonna, Robbie Williams and some more. But of course only a play of ideas. We will not distract Lou Dorren from his work at least for the new and awaiting CD-4 Demodulator.
Dietrich
 
So, just what would it take to press new CD-4 records? You would need a quad tape player that could be slowed down to half speed, very common. You would need an encoder, Unless someone can find an old one and refurb it, highly unlikely, you would have to build one. That would be the hardest part. But could you just modify two Optimod FM stereo modulators to do the job? They would have to be beefed up to pass the low frequencies that would result from half speed play, not too dificult. and ANRS noise reduction encoding would have to be added. Note that the ANRS encoder would have to be designed to correctly encode at half speed, what will be decoded in real time. So then you have your CD-4 modulators. But the modulators are not that complex, so it might be better just to start from scratch. Next, the cutting turntable would have to be operable at half speed, and maybe the cutting head beefed up. From then on out, it would be about the same as producing a stereo record. Although, I believe the record presses required extra pressure and might require beefing up. Of course, this is probably very oversimplified, I understand that the original manufacture of quadradiscs was fraught with problems that had to be solved. But it's an interesting idea to talk about.

The Quadfather
 
In the Hollywood area, where all the movie studios are, they need to keep many vintage machines because of all the old formats that still needs to be worked with. A friend of mine is transferring a 1” 16 track reel into the digital realm and had to locate a production house that could get their hands on one. I’d be surprised if there Was Not a CD-4 mastering machine out there. I’ll ask the production house and a few other contacts if they know of any Quad mastering machines that still might exist.
 
Hey Lou:
So essentially you just amplify the heck out of the carrier, lop off the top and the bottom of the waveform severely, essentially making it a phase modulated square wave, and then feed that to the phase locked loop, fixed at whatever level the phase locked loop desires. A small variation in the signal input is not noticed because only the middle portion of the waveform is used (as viewed on an oscilloscope) In theory it should work. So why wasn't that method used before? Was it because the manufacturers didn't want to pay royalties on the idea? Was not paying the royalties worth the cost of finicky CD-4 performance? It wouldn't be to us.

Also, someone mentioned an optical cartridge. That sounds like a good idea. an optical cartridge could be made to have better frequency response I would think, and a more agile stylus, as light would offer no counter EMF. which would be very important in CD-4 performance, as many CD-4 performance problems are due to the stylus skating over the finer modulations. With the carts we've been using, this is solved by tracking a little heavier than the specs call for. Probably not as good for the record, but it works.

The Quadfather
 
As far as i know, other the actual and very expensive ELP deck, back in the days there was only the Toshiba SR-50 deck that featured a optical cartridge, so it doesn't seems it's something easy to find.
 
Regarding CD-4 Mastering in 2008:

http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=3385

I think all that was needed in addition to this RCA Quadulator
was a record cutting lathe that could be operated at 1/2 speed.

I think I read in a previous incarnation of the "QuadraphonicQuad"
discussion forum that one person in the record cutting business
mentioned they still had an RCA Quadulator.

Kirk Bayne
 
Till we can read the installment III from Lou Dorren (or buy the new demodulator), let's have further speculation about the possibilities for new CD-4 cutting and pressing. This will shorten the time of waiting. At first - to make new multichannel recordings from Bands will not be real difficult, because in each bigger town there are playing a lot of first class musicians or singers without a contract by the record firms. We have some years ago in Hamburg (Germany) already produced for the known fans here some of those 4-channel productions on 4-channel tape (Q4) by taking 8 and 16 tracks on studio tape.
The same (and the situation) should be also possible in the bigger US-towns. Madonna etc. on CD-4 could follow later. Important for my opinion will be, that the music should be more easy listening, pop and swinging jazz, which will find more appeal by the "masses" (and was often forgotten by the producers of new surround-software by SA-CD and DVD-A). So it would be also a real sensation, when the connection of the Old Q Guy to innerside people would help to find really a Quadrolator (I think, the newest was MK III). The Quadfather may help to find the factory for the super CD-4 vinyl (like the japanese pressings) and Lou could make the mixdown of the new recordings. Those storys may help us to wait till we have new infiormation for the long awaited new CD-4 demodulator. But when new CD-4 records would be additional possible, it would bve a fine thing.

Dietrich
 
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