MMH - New Atmos Decoder (beta) discussion

[ManWhoCan]

Well basically the 4 files appear identical. What software player you use, whether your system will decode Atmos, etc could determine how each sounds to you.
For MP4/M4A playback I use PowerDVD Ultra, and bitstream to my AVR which decodes the lossy DD+ to my 7.1.4 system.
But for example the Foobar media player will not bitstream, but can be configured to play back MP4/M4A files base channels, in other words you will not get any "movement" Atmos effects but the channels will play as fixed channels/positions.

Also the free VLC media player can be used to play back BD from .iso format and will decode lossless THD/Atmos. (I don't remember what Matroska formats with lossless Atmos/THD it will play but used to choke on M4A)

Hope that's understandable. Perhaps someone else can add some details I forget.

Thanks for your reply. I have previously stated that decoding is being done by Windows apps: MediaPlayer or 'Movies & TV' the former decodes m4a and the latter decodes mp4. Native Atmos decoding was implemented in the Windows10 'creators update'. I've used Foobar (after tweaking it to play m4a), VLC, MPC-BE and Power DVD, but as I was worried they might not be decoding correctly I switch to using these Windows 10 apps..
The files seems to decode and play OK but I am dismayed at the pretty awful mixes I'm getting with these official lossy (5.1) 16/48 Atmos files from Apple music. Those done by Giles Martin or Steven Wilson stand out from the crowd. The rest only sound at all balanced in the mix if I reduce the fronts to 75%. Generally what is in the rears seems like a wasted opportunity and is totally meh!
Because they sound like this I have thought there must be something wrong at my end, others here tend to agree, but I now think there is nothing wrong and these files are just not good mixes in the first place.

 

[ManWhoCan]

Hmmm...

There's a lot of unnecessary meta-data in some of those files. Personally I would remove most of it (using something like MP3tag) as it might be confusing your player...

How exactly are you playing these files. What's the make and model numbers of your playback device and AVR?

Make and model number of the AVR is moot. It is not an Atmos enable AVR, it's an old Denon, but decoding is not done in the AVR it is done in Windows or the other apps I just mentioned above. The files are on my HDDs I use the apps mentioned to decode and play them, sending an analogue signal to my AVR via my Mch XonarD2 sound card.

 

[SeeMoreDigital]

Make and model number of the AVR is moot. It is not an Atmos enable AVR, it's an old Denon, but decoding is not done in the AVR it is done in Windows or the other apps I just mention above.

So to confirm... You are not sending an lossy (DD+) Atmos bitstream via HDMI to your AVR then?

If not, how is your playback device connected to your AVR?

 

[ManWhoCan]

So to confirm... You are not sending an lossy (DD+) Atmos bitstream via HDMI to your AVR then?

If not, how is your playback device connected to your AVR?

Sorry, I realise that for some folks, used to more modern tech that it is difficult for them to understand how us older folks solved Mch problems before the advent of HDMI. I have a PC with 5.1 analogue outs to an AVR with the required 5.1 analogue ins.

 

[SeeMoreDigital]

Sorry, I realise that for some folks, used to more modern tech that it is difficult for them to understand how us older folks solved Mch problems before the advent of HDMI. I have a PC with 5.1 analogue outs to an AVR with the required 5.1 analogue ins.

That's fine... I run an analogue set-up too (see in my sig)!

Anyway, now that you have confirmed this, it has become obvious that you need to be playing your multi-channel (DD+) Atmos.mp4 files using a software media player that is able to 'transcode' multi-channel (DD+) Atmos.mp4 into a lossless multi-channel PCM stream.

Not all software media players can do this...

 

[mandrix]

Well a lot of us are "old folks" on this forum. I started with Quad in early '70's myself.
What we were trying to determine if you DID have an atmos capable AVR.
If not then of course just the basic channel output

As to quality of sound, Atmos, as everything else, depends mostly on who does the mixing and so on.
As to the built in Windows apps, I don't use them but don't assume because I don't I'm unaware of them I prefer to use other apps because I bitstream everything to the AVR via HDMI.
...and yes, I have an AVR that is 5.1 analog input. I use it to run my side surrounds pre out from my Onkyo.

 

[ManWhoCan]

That's fine... I run an analogue set-up too (see in my sig)!

Anyway, now that you have confirmed this, it has become obvious that you need to be playing your multi-channel (DD+) Atmos.mp4 files using a software media player that is able to 'transcode' multi-channel (DD+) Atmos.mp4 into a lossless multi-channel PCM stream.

Not all software media players can do this...

Thank you for your assistance. As stated in my reply 182: "The files are on my HDDs I use the apps mentioned to decode and play them, sending an analogue signal to my AVR via my Mch XonarD2 sound card." Please see also 181.

 

[AYanguas]

Yes I tried that 1st., but it was unsuccessful. I've renamed files recently by changing the suffix e.g. webpage image to .jpg and that worked. This is why I'm now asking about a conversion from m4a to mp4. Maybe I did, or did not, do something simple when trying to rename an m4a to mp4. I'll try again, but any and all advice is most welcome, thank you.

In my Windows 10 PC, I can play either m4a or mp4 files with Media Player. Same files, just renaming it.

"Movies & TV" only play mp4, because it thinks it's a movie (audio track is played, but there is no video track). m4a files are supossed to be only audio, and thats is why they ar not admited by "Movies & TV".

If you like more what is played by "Movies & TV", did you try to rename the .m4a file to .mp4 and play it with "Movies & TV"? I had to enable the volume in "Movies & TV", because it starts with the volume muted.

Try this with same files (renamed) and look if there are differences in playing with Media Player of "Movies & TV" Different files/different mixes/different music perhaps cannot be compared well.


In any case, as I play those Atmos files with DUNE/Oppo, I'm not any expert on processing Dolby Atmos in PC, and all this tests in my PC give me only stereo from the DD+ Atmos files.

 

[ManWhoCan]

In my Windows 10 PC, I can play either m4a or mp4 files with Media Player. Same files, just renaming it.

"Movies & TV" only play mp4, because it thinks it's a movie (audio track is played, but there is no video track). m4a files are supossed to be only audio, and thats is why they ar not admited by "Movies & TV".

If you like more what is played by "Movies & TV", did you try to rename the .m4a file to .mp4 and play it with "Movies & TV"? I had to enable the volume in "Movies & TV", because it starts with the volume muted.

Try this with same files (renamed) and look if there are differences in playing with Media Player of "Movies & TV" Different files/different mixes/different music perhaps cannot be compared well.


In any case, as I play those Atmos files with DUNE/Oppo, I'm not any expert on processing Dolby Atmos in PC, and all this tests in my PC give me only stereo from the DD+ Atmos files.

Yeah I've tried all that, thank you. The one simple thing that you seem to manage and I fail at is the file renaming. It fails to work when I simply add .mp4 to the (m4a) file name. Also no way in WinX to change which WinX app will open the mp4 files. That is stuck on WMP.

 

[mandrix]

OK guy. I missed the post on the analog out.
You sort of threw me off with the "older folks" remark.
But we're just trying to help.
My pc IS my music machine, I prefer it over the disc player as it's more convenient. I've went through every sort of problem one can possibly have, at least with my current and former setup.
(but not with Windoze native players)

As @AYanguas said, often changing the extension on a file will allow a player to recognize the format.

Again, as to quality of sound, that depends on who mixed it, MP4 and M4A containers can hold identical DD+ and the file type in and of itself should have no bearing on quality of sound.
Atmos files are apparently mixed by some people horribly, just a fact.

Good luck.

 

[ManWhoCan]

OK guy. I missed the post on the analog out.

You sort of threw me off with the "older folks" remark.
But we're just trying to help.
My pc IS my music machine, I prefer it over the disc player as it's more convenient. I've went through every sort of problem one can possibly have, at least with my current and former setup.
(but not with Windoze native players)

As @AYanguas said, often changing the extension on a file will allow a player to recognize the format.

Again, as to quality of sound, that depends on who mixed it, MP4 and M4A containers can hold identical DD+ and the file type in and of itself should have no bearing on quality of sound.
Atmos files are apparently mixed by some people horribly, just a fact.

Good luck.

My 'Older Folks' remark was just my lazy way of referring to pre HDMI gear.

So this is what in reality it comes down to "Atmos files are apparently mixed by some people horribly, just a fact." I was surprised at how bad so many of the apple lossy atmos mixes are, when so many people here seem to think they are great! I initially thought the problem must be at my end and there might be a decoding issue or whatever. In the end I guess it's just a question of taste (for which there is no accounting) about whether one consider any of these apple lossy atmos streamed mixes good enough for one's personal tastes.

 

[himey]

I was surprised at how bad so many of the apple lossy atmos mixes are, when so many people here seem to think they are great!

A general statement like this stupid and accomplishes absolutely nothing. Why not talk about specific titles? That way, we can get down to which titles are bad, and which ones are good. I will start. Random Access Memories sounds amazing on my system. Does it sound good on yours? The Police Greatest Hits sounds very average on my setuup and I rarely ever listen to the Atmos mix. Until The Police release a quality Atmos mix, or 5.1 for that matter, I will stick to two channels for them.

 

[SeeMoreDigital]

Provided it's set-up correctly, VLC Player is able to transcode just about every multi-channel audio format to PCM. Plus it's constantly being updated

 

[himey]

Provided it's set-up correctly, VLC Player is able to transcode just about every multi-channel audio format to PCM. Plus it's constantly being updated

Windows Media Player has no issues with Atmos bed Dolby Digital Plus, which is somewhat surprising.

 

[AYanguas]

I was surprised at how bad so many of the apple lossy atmos mixes are, when so many people here seem to think they are great!

It would be good to know and diferentiate what you consider that sounds bad in your system, and what you consider is a bad mix.

If you could tell us what Atmos song sounds good to you, because you think is a good mix, or because you like the music.
And what Atmos song you consider is bad.

Just trying to diferentiate if there is a decoding problem in your system or an artistic perception of the mix quality.

 

[ManWhoCan]

I could have worded it better, but frankly I'm exhausted by all this back and forth for days trying to help people understand the various problem I've had with atmos that they seemed not to be able to imagine. e.g. HDMI issue etc..
It's not so much that the mix is simply bad (my bad) but that the mix balance is badly off, so reducing what I hear in the rear very drastically. Unless you guys are also listening to 5.1 the same as me, and it seems most of you are not, having many more channels of atmos to enjoy, then it is difficult for you to appreciate my problems. At least some of you are not listening to the same thing as me.

We don't even have many of the same songs in common for comparison sake. I have all along been calling out the Hurting and Pet Sounds as being better balanced than all the others I have. I confess to not yet listening to Space In Time because I have simply wonderful renditions of it in other formats. Nor do I have that Daft Punk nor Willie Nelson's album in atmos.
Bob Marley - Kaya seems bad to me anyone got that one?

 

[HomerJAU]

All I can add is both surround mix and fidelity vary across Atmos streaming releases.

Mix can be anything from double-stereo (stereo repeated in rears in a near 4 ch like quad mix) to full on discrete in all channels including heights. Some don’t have much in the Centre.

Fidelity: Can be quite poor to excellent. I’ve been surprised at how good DDPlus can sound.

There are a few threads discussing Atmos streaming quality and lists of QQers ‘best’ releases.

The Rolling Stones mixes at one end, Tom Petty mixes at best end.

Bob Marley Kaya not so good, Bob Marley Legend much better.

 

[himey]

Bob Marley - Kaya seems bad to me

It sounds great on my system, but I have never listened to just the 5.1 bed on that particular title, and a lot of the bass comes from the rear speakers which you would not hear with your small speakers. Maybe someone else could chime in on that one.

 

[himey]

Bob Marley Kaya not so good

We don't agree on the Atmos mix of Roxy Music either, go figure.

 

[himey]

Bob Marley Legend much better.

Both the 5.1 and Atmos mixes are very good and nearly reference.