PS Audio - Surround Sound not more popular with Audiophiles?

[ProgRules]

LOL I thought that was a typo! And yes, I imagine females would be even less impressed by collector's cards than even high end audio systems.

I think audio at the high end is not cheaper than classic or fancy sports cars.

But I'd definitely buy an expensive car- whether classic or high end sports car- than spend crazy money on an audio system- even a great surround system. Much better investment and just as fun. But I'll never have crazy money...

 

[Sal1950]

A turntable is esential for me. My preference for music is that of the sixties, seventies and early eighties. Much of that music has never been released digitally and likely never will be. Many digital releases are brickwalled so I am forced back to the vinyl to get decent sound quality.

Are you a classical music fan?
Just curious since I'm a big rock and blues fan with interests in the same years of release as yourself. The facts of those genre's are the exact opposite of what you've stated. Almost everything ever recorded has been released in digital form, and although many suffered from the loudness war compression, they also have other masters available with great DR. Then add in all the multich stuff we've been lucky enough to be on the receiving end of. WOW!
These really are the golden years for audiophile popular music fans of the "boomer" generation.

 

[Sonik Wiz]

Gonna give a shout out @gene_stl here. What would he say?

Missing you Gene.

 

[par4ken]

Are you a classical music fan?
Just curious since I'm a big rock and blues fan with interests in the same years of release as yourself. The facts of those genre's are the exact opposite of what you've stated. Almost everything ever recorded has been released in digital form, and although many suffered from the loudness war compression, they also have other masters available with great DR. Then add in all the multich stuff we've been lucky enough to be on the receiving end of. WOW!
These really are the golden years for audiophile popular music fans of the "boomer" generation.

I'm mostly a rock fan and yes there is an awful lot that has never been released on CD or any digital format. If you are only interested in the biggest names or in greatest hits packages you might be right and slowly more and more releases do trickle out. Many of those are actually unofficial releases. Sometimes packages are released that are taken from vinyl, but who wants those? I can do a much better job myself.

What about the SQ encoded albums from CBS? Recently mention was made of Bonnie Koloc's quad (EV-4 and QS) records being released on CD but they too came from vinyl.

I could start a whole thread about albums that have never been released on CD!

 

[MidiMagic]

I would prefer a matrixed quad CD over any of the newer formats, because:
- I can play it almost anywhere.
- It works with or without the decoder.
- If it is QS, EV, DQ, or DS, it is easy to cobble up a makeshift decoder.
- They are easy to mix and record.

 

[Horbus]

Some mention lots of money being needed for audiophile systems. This is particulary true for the so called "High End" gear with it's prohibitive price tags and in general linked to audiophile listening. But to be an audiophile it doesn't need this lavish spending on overpriced products. One can put together an audiophile system at a very modest price by carefully selecting the right components.
So plse don't mistake "audiophile" with "High End".

 

[mandrix]

I quite agree. I consider myself a "budget" audiophile.
My point was that throwing more money at something doesn't necessarily make it better; but once spent people can convince themselves it was worthwhile.
Don't really care what people spend their money on, it's theirs to spend as they see fit.

 

[barfle]

I’ve stated several times that my standart for audio is “pretty good.” That means I don’t go for the megabucks monoblock amplifiers (although mine are pretty good), 48” subwoofer (although mine is pretty good), or 100kHz tweeters (although mine are pretty good).

I believe the only item in my stack that was rated top end is my Oppo 105, which cost a bit over $1000 from the factory.

This discussion reminds me of something that happened about 30 years ago. In the 60s and 70s, Los Angeles radio station KHJ was a top 40 station, and had a big audience among people my age (including me). A bunch of business malarky happened that ended up with RKO losing their broadcast license. Their FM station became KRTH, an oldies station, which, again, appealed to my age group. Then something interesting happened. The company that now owned KRTH bought the old KHJ back, and started playing the same records on the same gear that they had been in the 60s, and I was amazed at the fact that it all SOUNDED right! Clearly a drop in fidelity from stereo FM back to the old 6kHz mono AM, but it just felt right.

Does stereo vinyl (and only stereo vinyl) bring back that same feeling? Maybe for some folks.

 

[mandrix]

I certainly have no problem with listening to the radio. I sort of got my "jazz education" listening to a weekly show by saxophonist David Sanborn.

 

[Steve Bruzonsky]

Downstairs at CEDIA a few years back I heard a super expensive stereo system that was absolutely breathtaking and wonderful, the best I've ever heard - but I think msrp was like a half million bucks!
If I was a billionaire I'd go for it! If I could remember what it was!

2002 CES I heard the million dollar system which - sounded crappy!

Go figure.

 

[gene_stl]

When CDs were about to come out my stereo buddy and I were licking our chops like lions that just killt something because we were going to get 98% of whatever they captured on the master tape fed directly to our stereos. We had to wait for a while until the price of CD players came down. And even then CDs themselves were a little pricey. They cost about as much as a good quality album at first and then came down some. I didn't have even 100 them when I took a hiatus from the hobby in 1994. When I came back in 2017 they were more or less free.

There has been lots of advancement in all sorts of things. But microphones are still a limiting factor as are the techniques of using them. Similarly over at Audio Science Review they tell me that there are great advances in loudspeaker drivers since I built my system in the late seventies but I actually don't see it. I have not seen any raw loudspeaker drivers (and I have looked) that make me want to change my system. There is much more choice today if someone was building a set of speakers. There have been some evolutionary improvements but nothing revolutionary.

I went to the "high end show" in Chicago at the CES in the mid seventies. The "million dollar" system then was Marc Levenson's stacked quad electrostat system, with decca ribbon tweeters, and giganto Hartly wooofers (30 inch), driven by levenson electronics. He had a Studer multichannel tape system playing stereo that he had recorded himself. But even that one was not as ridiculously priced as what we have seen since. Levensons electronics were among the first crazy priced things but they seem reasonable compared to todays stuff. I call it yacht store stereo equipment. If you ask the price you don't belong there. Also if you know anything about electronics or acoustics you also don't belong there because you might mention accidentally to other potential customers that speaker wire trestles are a fraud.

We have seen in other threads the sexy girls in old stereo adverts. They wanted to listen to their favorite rock acts in good quality hifi. I don't think that does the job today, but what do I know.

I listen to mostly classical music. I do like some rock and roll mainly up to when the Beatles broke up. Not much subsequent.

Hi, @Sonik Wiz !!

I missed Quadraphonic I because 1) I didn't see any album releases that made me want to upgrade 2) I never ever heard a quad system even though I frequented stereo shops. None of them had quad on display 3) I didn't happen to know anyone who had a quad system that might have given me the bug.

My only exposure during my hiatus was I saw a small setup in a store that had digital discs I don't know which flavor they were. They had four small speakers suspended in the air. I remember checking the price tag of the smallish system and the program discs and was dismayed by both.

 

[Sal1950]

I'm mostly a rock fan and yes there is an awful lot that has never been released on CD or any digital format. If you are only interested in the biggest names or in greatest hits packages you might be right and slowly more and more releases do trickle out. Many of those are actually unofficial releases.

You certainly must have very exotic tastes in Rock & Blues, anything there was any real demand for was released on CD. I currently have over 4000+ albums stored on my drives, I'd say about 70% of it classic rock stuff 90's and earlier. I don't much collect "greatest hits" unless it's something special, like the new Chicago IX Atmos bluray.

There has been lots of advancement in all sorts of things. But microphones are still a limiting factor as are the techniques of using them. Similarly over at Audio Science Review they tell me that there are great advances in loudspeaker drivers since I built my system in the late seventies but I actually don't see it.

Much more has been done from designers paying greater attention in radiation patterns of both the individual drivers and from the speakers as a whole.. The speaker/room interface has gotten an lot more attention in the last few decades. Have you read Floyd Toole's stuff?
Are multi thousand dollar beryllium tweeters worth it? Yes very marginally IF you could afford them. I can't LOL
Speaker advancement has been incremental in all areas, but it has advanced.

I went to the "high end show" in Chicago at the CES in the mid seventies. The "million dollar" system then was Marc Levenson's stacked quad electrostat system, with decca ribbon tweeters, and giganto Hartly wooofers (30 inch), driven by levenson electronics. But even that one was not as ridiculously priced as what we have seen since. Levensons electronics were among the first crazy priced things but they seem reasonable compared to todays stuff. I call it yacht store stereo equipment. If you ask the price you don't belong there. Also if you know anything about electronics or acoustics you also don't belong there because you might mention accidentally to other potential customers that speaker wire trestles are a fraud.

Sure, the High End has lost all touch with High Fidelity. It's more about bragging rights on the cost of your
system than having something that's really more accurate to the source material. But I do see some light at the
end of that tunnel with more interest being shown to the web media covering our passion from a objective and
measurement based angle. Luxury goods are nice, but many watches keep as good if not better time than some
a small fraction of the cost. The same is true for audio.

 

[jimfisheye]

I consider myself a scavenger with high standards. I still might be interested in a deep dive 1% or 2% conversation when it makes sense. I need bang for the buck though! The used market of high tech from the last 20 years for pennies on the dollar and people often just giving things away instead of doing minor maintenance or repairs means anything new with a big price better deliver and then some.

Microphones a limiting factor?!
Not even a little.
It's certainly true that we've had full fidelity speakers, amps, and plenty of microphones for all kinds of different capture for decades. (I don't want to ambiguously call microphones full fidelity in a generic sense. Too many variables and strategies.)

The big limiting factor was consumer delivery until the digital age. The biggest limiting factor in any mix from back then till now is the mix itself. You have the ability to skew the sounds in any direction. The entire thing is on you and how you're dialing things up. Damaging mastering can sure alter things and we've heard too many examples of novelty lo-fi mastering. Volume war stuff and so forth. But the mix itself is still the biggest variable even there. That one DOES get close! Some of the shrill compressed stuff is pretty altered!

Think about the mixes you've heard. You could pull the fader all the way down on a backing vocal. That's not some fleeting thing skewed by perception bias. That's readily heard on anything from an old boombox cassette player to an mp3 to streaming. And everything hi-fi. Listen to Phil Spector's remix of Across The Universe on the Let It Be album. (The Wildlife sampler album and single having the original mixes.) Listen to how the backing vocals sound in the remix... You can't hear them at all because he has the faders fully off! Pretty altering. More than any format or any mastering of the album.

 

[par4ken]

You certainly must have very exotic tastes in Rock & Blues, anything there was any real demand for was released on CD. I currently have over 4000+ albums stored on my drives, I'd say about 70% of it classic rock stuff 90's and earlier. I don't much collect "greatest hits" unless it's something special, like the new Chicago IX Atmos bluray.

I don't think that my taste is that exotic but for whatever reason a lot of great music has never been released on CD. Then if you subtract the CD releases that are brickwalled and those sourced from vinyl the list of viable CD's is reduced even further. If you like something search deeper and you will likely find it leads to other releases by the same artist many of which are not on CD.

I was going to mention Ruby Starr (she played with Black Oak Arkansas) as one example but I see that her stuff was just released in 2023. As I say releases keep trickling out.

Try to find Canadian releases like Five Man Electrical Band. There are several compilations as well as the first album on Capitol but where is "Goodbyes and Butterflies", "Coming of Age", "Strange Paradise", "Power of the Five Man Electrical Band"? "Goodbye and Butterflies" was released on a Korean/Japanese label but is sourced from vinyl. Les Emmerson had enough excellent solo singles to warrant an album, but I was forced to collect the 45's.

Same for some other notable Canadian bands, The Bells, compilation CD's only. Tom Northcott "Upside Downside". Chilliwack "Rockerbox" although most of their other albums were released. A Foot in Coldwater "Breaking Through" the other albums were released., The Poppy Family, compilation CD's only, Susan Jacks only unofficial releases from vinyl. I could go on and on and on!

Neil Diamond's' Bang recordings, a compilation CD exists but I found that it was brickwalled. The other original (Bang) LP's, although they contain much the same material, sometimes containing different versions of the same songs have never been released. They would make a nice box set.

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[Petr Kropotkin]

I guess you could say that he had a "Warren Buffet" audiophile system...

Where his audiophile system paid more tax than he did?

 

[gene_stl]

re "Floyd Toole' stuff": On page 453, of his text book, he publishes spinoramas of a variety of vintage loudspeakers, from back in the day. The only one that performs decently by modern standards is the Yamaha NS 1000. I have had the pleasure of some correspondence with Dr. Toole.

Martin Collums(Mr. "Monitor Audio") in his seventies textbook "High Performance Loudspeakers" had chapters on MidRanges and Tweeters. He described the Yammies as the lowest distortion drivers he has ever measured. Since they are domes they radiate into half space quite well if the crossover frequencies are correctly selected. A four way system makes this much easier. In order to get the bass response they wanted the NS1000 uses a twelve inch woofer and takes the midrange down lower which may raise the distortion by virtue of amplitude excursion. I am working on modifying some NS1000 that I got with some dead wooofers. I am going to replace the woofs with eight or ten inch and quad amp them with a sub.

I mostly cannot generate much enthusiasm for "Room EQ" and correction systems. I was always more of a "switch the tone controls out of the system if possible" type of audio person. The four way shelving of my system gets me close enough for government work. I know the sound I am looking for which I test both with a one third channel real time analyzer and also listening to music on instruments I have studied the playing of.

With the multiple sources of multi channel systems the worrying that stereophiles do about their radiationgrams seems less important to me.

Electronics have gotten quieter and lower distortion and possibly more efficient. But the sound I got in 1977 was more than adequate and has not been improved on materially. And most of my source material was LPs. As I said, we were very excited when the CD was announced. Like having your own copy of the master tape. Until the loudness wars started.

If microphones have improved so much why do people pay ginormous premiums to buy ancient Neumann, Sennheiser and AKG mikes??

 

[ProgRules]

Downstairs at CEDIA a few years back I heard a super expensive stereo system that was absolutely breathtaking and wonderful, the best I've ever heard - but I think msrp was like a half million bucks!
If I was a billionaire I'd go for it! If I could remember what it was!

2002 CES I heard the million dollar system which - sounded crappy!

Go figure.

One knew how to set up a good acoustical space and the other didn't would be my guess. Goes to show how without good knowledge you can throw a lot of bucks at something and end up with poor results.