Reality Technologies - New surround technology

[chucky3042]

Hello All

For more information on what we are doing please checkout our new website. It is still not finished and will shortly have a lot of extra information on both new product and technology. I suppose its 60% ready but it is way better than the previous site!

www.involveaudio.com

Regards

Charlie

 

[chucky3042]

Hello Everyone

Just completed INITIAL rough testing of our latest Intelligent INVOLVE encoder with our Involve decoder and all is looking good.In a few weeks time we will produce a comprehensive set of test results. Attached is the results:


Please note when the encoder is set to QS mode the overall encode/ decode separation is higher (Average -37.2 dB) than the INVOLVE encode mode (Average -30.9 dB), BUT the cost is a greatly reduce stereo mix image. When we use the Intelligent INVOLVE encoder the stereo mix is INDISTINGUISHABLE from the original stereo. The drop in decode separation is not noticeable on our trials. In addition these are STATIC tone measurements conducted with a fixed 1kHz sine wave tone. In complex music the Intelligent INVOLVE encoder will vary its matrix parameters between the above two matrix's dynamically to continuously adapt so that the listener cannot hear any difference for both the stereo encode and the decoded surround outputs. So in practicality the music results will be somewhere between the two table results.

More to follow soon.

Regards

charlie

 

[byrdman7]

Hi Charlie,
Can you share with us what type/types of stereo input the final Involve Surround unit will have?

Reagan

 

[jsrstereo]

Charlie: Will you be able to post copy of the owner/operator manual?

thanks from John

 

[chucky3042]

hi Reagan

The final Surround Master decoder that will be available shortly have just the basic RCA connectors. For other styles such as optical etc we will leave that up to the decision of future licensees of the technology. Currently ME Amplifiers will be the first external licence holder for their new stereo/ surround pre amp, due to limited rear panel space they to are restricting the I/O to RCA. Please note they are also incorporating the Encoder into the same unit. I have attached an advanced view of the rear panel design.

For a sneak look at the matching power amp please go to http://involveaudio.com/audio.php?id=36&pid=10 on our website.

I will keep this forum informed of any future options.

Regards

Charlie

Hi Charlie,
Can you share with us what type/types of stereo input the final Involve Surround unit will have?

Reagan

 

[chucky3042]

Hi John

Sorry it's not finished yet and is held up by a few minor detail's such as the final picture and perhaps improved wording (I am semi illiterate). Tried to attach it to this reply but it exceeds the 100kb limit for .doc files.

Regards

Charlie

Charlie: Will you be able to post copy of the owner/operator manual?

thanks from John

 

[byrdman7]

Hi Charlie
Thank you for your reply and information. Looking forward to trying this puppy out. Take care.

Reagan

hi Reagan

The final Surround Master decoder that will be available shortly have just the basic RCA connectors. For other styles such as optical etc we will leave that up to the decision of future licensees of the technology. Currently ME Amplifiers will be the first external licence holder for their new stereo/ surround pre amp, due to limited rear panel space they to are restricting the I/O to RCA. Please note they are also incorporating the Encoder into the same unit. I have attached an advanced view of the rear panel design.

For a sneak look at the matching power amp please go to http://involveaudio.com/audio.php?id=36&pid=10 on our website.

I will keep this forum informed of any future options.

Regards

Charlie

 

[chucky3042]

Hi John

Hot off the presses, here is an early draft version of the instruction manual - it still needs some pictures and some text clarifications.

Regards

Charlie

Charlie: Will you be able to post copy of the owner/operator manual?

thanks from John

 

[bob.stek]

Hi all -

Excited as I am with this new approach unfortunately for me I think that 95% of my quad lp collection is SQ and CD-4. Except for the brief comment that it doesn't do much for SQ beyond what it does for stereo enhancement, I would love to hear the opening trumpets of the Chase lp rotating around the four channels when played through the new decoder. So from both a theoretical and practical standpoint, just what does it offer the person with an SQ library? True, I do have hundreds of stereo albums, but what would be different than just playing them through my Tate or Dolby 5.1, for that matter? I assume some would sound different but would it be worth $395? Are there any plans for making a better 'Tate SQ decoder', or are there technical reasons involving the matrix parameters that would not make this feasible.?

On a related note, does anyone have a breakdown of the rough percentage of quad lp releases broken down by SQ, QS, EVX, and CD-4?

Bob

 

[rustyandi]

I played the Chase the 1st track SQ through the reality Decoder
As you know it is QS
The start gives a left side with a slight acent to rear channel
the the same to right side
then you get a rear stereo effect then to the front Stereo
It gives a horse shoe effect from right rear to right front to
left front to left rear
If you did not know how it decoder through Tate you would
think it was great
I have played a few SQ through it as a rule
when you have a rear channel in SQ
it seams to come from both rear channel in QS
So a number of times it is like a stereo front and a stereo rear
not double stereo a separate front and rear and sometimes a right or left rear
Not to bad But not SQ

As for the releases
QS the best LPs were Project 3 . ABC.and a lot of rubbish . I have about 570 LPs
SQ had the most with big name singers. also the most Classical. I have about 810 LPs
CD4 were next I have about 585 LPs
EV4 maybe about 20 to 30 released they decode as QS

 

[rustyandi]

I forgot to say that it is a better decoder for stereo
than SQ I have played FM. Digital radio & LPs
and they range from great to OK
I have asked about a SQ decoder but I don't think there is any chance
Also I think that there was a $350 price for members
If you are at all interested in surround sound you must have one

 

[bob.stek]

Thanks, rustyandi. Being a quadraholic, I will probably be getting one anyway. But I don't understand the decision to 'ignore' SQ. There were many decoders which had a mode switch for choosing between QS and SQ (or RM).

With Fosgate-Tates going for $800-$1200 on epay, I would have thought that an SQ mode would be a natural inclusion. With Lou Dorren's new demodulator (if it ever sees the light of day), and Reality Tech's unit for super-duper QS, I would love to see a better-than-Tate SQ decoder to complete the holy trinity (sorry, ambisonics and even EVX - your lp market shares were just too small).

Charlie, where's the love for the SQ crowd?

Bob

 

[oxforddickie]

To decode SQ properly is probably beyond the abilities of this unit, as would UHJ/Ambisonics.

Equipment from the '70s had to have seperate decoders for each system, there never was, nor never could be, a decoder design that accurately decoded all of the matrix systems of the time.

You need to consider QS & SQ as incompatible as petrol & desiel

 

[chucky3042]

Hi Bob and Ron

Ok, I secretly do love (just a little ) the SQ crowd. The decision not to make our unit multi format decode compatible is more related to the big picture of our aims and to specifically steer away from traditional 4/ 5.1 channel sound formats. Unfortunately we have not fully made into the final marketable format our Total Perspective system (we can demo it in Melbourne Australia). Combined with involve we claim:

1 The listener can sit anywhere in the room and have a fully consistent image WITHOUT the center channel and just 4 speakers.

2 Unlike other matrix surround formats BOTH the encoded "stereo" mix and Decoded surround outputs are indistinguishable from the original. No other format (outside discrete/ CD4) can achieve this.

3 We can produce a FULL 3D (with height) with only 4 audio channels - yes we can demo.

We are not pitching this basic unit at just the audiophile/ quadraphile market but more "Joe public" who is sick of center channels, more than 4 speakers, having to select formats (Dolby, Dts etc). We want this to be a simple set and forget box that you just connect to your STEREO outputs and you get either 2 channel virtual, 4ch or 5.1 channel surround - no thinking.

We chose the QS format as the core of our matrix as it is fully balanced with no preference to front/ back/ left/ right and is superior for conventional stereo decode (we think). SQ is directionally biased and favours the front Left/ right. The fact that we do a reasonable job of decoding or extracting surround information from SQ is more related to our more advanced "logic processing" that frankly looks at things more like the human ear / brain interface. The software is so complicated that we had great trouble fitting it into existing DSP chips (we use 2).

THE GOOD NEWS

OK OK OK you fellas have worn me down. We will do some work shortly to incorporate into the "professional " Involve pre amplifier (by ME amplifiers/ Winovate) a 3 way format selection -----INVOLVE/ QS/ SQ.

We can substitute a SQ core - but this will only be on the "Pro " unit.

Hope this clarifies

Best Regards

Charlie

Thanks, rustyandi. Being a quadraholic, I will probably be getting one anyway. But I don't understand the decision to 'ignore' SQ. There were many decoders which had a mode switch for choosing between QS and SQ (or RM).

With Fosgate-Tates going for $800-$1200 on epay, I would have thought that an SQ mode would be a natural inclusion. With Lou Dorren's new demodulator (if it ever sees the light of day), and Reality Tech's unit for super-duper QS, I would love to see a better-than-Tate SQ decoder to complete the holy trinity (sorry, ambisonics and even EVX - your lp market shares were just too small).

Charlie, where's the love for the SQ crowd?

Bob

 

[bob.stek]

Charlie -

One word: YESSSSSSSSSS !!!

Bob

 

[rustyandi]

I forgot to say that
Playing Q Sound CDs or LPs through the unit
Can give a full surround sound
And UHJ gives a fairly good effect
I have a LP in UHJ by T.A.G it is a electronic weird
but on 1 side the sound swirls around all the speakers
I have a UHJ decoder and have tested this effect
then on the Denon 100, UD4 setting and it is the same on the scope
and to your ear
on the new decoder it is not the same but it gives a
very interesting effect

 

[Q8]

Does Dolby still own the SQ technology? If so do you have to pay Dolby to create devices which decode SQ?

Like Bob, I am thrilled to hear that there may be a new SQ decoding option.

I hope that the "Pro" SQ units will be under $500. There are still a lot of us quad fans that don't have the $800-$1200 to spend on a Tate. It will be amazing to have a unit that is both a top notch QS and SQ decoder.

Thanks!

I'm not sure about how excited I am about the Envolve technology, especially since I believe I read on your site that it will require special speakers.

Also, is it natural to create a sound field that sounds the same from any position? When you view a television or projection screen from different positions, you have different viewing angles and see things in a different way. Here is a hypothetical: If you are watching an action movie, and the action is on the right hand side of the screen, and the sound is coming from the right hand speakers, and you are sitting on the right hand side of the theater, wouldnt it be more natural that the sound would be louder than if you were sitting on the left side of the theater?

 

[rustyandi]

No you do not need special speakers
For the decoder that is another system he has
I am using JBL 150s late 70s

 

[chucky3042]

Hi Q8

Yes Ron is right INVOLVE does not need special speakers in any way. Total Perspective is our other system and it does require a new style of speaker and associated electronics. The way you describe listening to a performance from different viewing angles is exactly what the system does - perhaps I did not express myself clearly. Imagine if you had a small band of performers in you lounge room. In real life as you walk around the room you still point to the exact same position where each performer is located (image does not shift relative to the room) -That's what Total Perspective does.

Normally in the audiophile world there is a fight to sit in the sweet spot (particularly with electrostatics). We find in our test rooms we now get lazy and sit any where (I tend to sit front left habitually for some reason).

Re SQ : The equations are public domain as they have been around from the early 70's (or late 60's??), many other systems have been based on it including SRS (now owned by DTS). Dolby acquired Tates logic process.

Best Regards

Charlie

Does Dolby still own the SQ technology? If so do you have to pay Dolby to create devices which decode SQ?

Like Bob, I am thrilled to hear that there may be a new SQ decoding option.

I hope that the "Pro" SQ units will be under $500. There are still a lot of us quad fans that don't have the $800-$1200 to spend on a Tate. It will be amazing to have a unit that is both a top notch QS and SQ decoder.

Thanks!

I'm not sure about how excited I am about the Envolve technology, especially since I believe I read on your site that it will require special speakers.

Also, is it natural to create a sound field that sounds the same from any position? When you view a television or projection screen from different positions, you have different viewing angles and see things in a different way. Here is a hypothetical: If you are watching an action movie, and the action is on the right hand side of the screen, and the sound is coming from the right hand speakers, and you are sitting on the right hand side of the theater, wouldnt it be more natural that the sound would be louder than if you were sitting on the left side of the theater?

 

[LizardKing]

Hey Charlie

When is a unit likely to be available for shipping to QQ members?