Rhino Quadios - Batch 7 - Speculation

[DrKlahn]

yes, I have seen that on very late tube gear... both my Pilot 654 and H.H. Scott 340B have a "derived" center channel output.

As for "phantom center" I have started to think that many HT systems work better with the center channel mixed to the L&R speakers rather than using a physical center, as it makes imaging all wonky with "talking head" type TV programming. The exception would be if you are using an acoustically transparent projection screen and can position the center's tweeter exactly in the center of the screen. I've also wired two speakers in series for a "center" and positioned them tight to the screen with the tweeters about halfway up the screen and then two more speakers farther apart for L&R, if you level match correctly that works too but you need a wide room to pull that off.

I've heard multiple instances of both. I disagree. Folding info back into the L/R can crowd the sound and sitting in locations other than the sweet spot causes the phantom image to collapse. A mix can image between the center and the corresponding L/R if the engineer wants to place sound there. I think it's sometimes a case of the center not being up to the task, which could favor a phantom setup.

I have non AT screen and by necessity my center is a bit lower. No issues with the sound coming across as uneven. The front soundstage is very cohesive.

At the end of the day though, it's what works for you in your space.

 

[n8nagel]

I've heard multiple instances of both. I disagree. Folding info back into the L/R can crowd the sound and sitting in locations other than the sweet spot causes the phantom image to collapse. A mix can image between the center and the corresponding L/R if the engineer wants to place sound there. I think it's sometimes a case of the center not being up to the task, which could favor a phantom setup.

I have non AT screen and by necessity my center is a bit lower. No issues with the sound coming across as uneven. The front soundstage is very cohesive.

At the end of the day though, it's what works for you in your space.

Where I really noticed this effect was at my ex's place, I set her up with an AVR and some typical Polk speakers. She had a 65"? I think? TV and mounted a shelf above it to set the center channel. It was really noticeable that the sound of e.g. a news program was coming from above the screen, rather than the lips of the anchor like you'd expect, and I found this really distracting. This was when I got silly as her basement room was very wide, and I set it up with two Genesis speakers in series (or did I wire them in parallel? I forget) right next to the screen, two more farther away for L&R, and EPI 100s for surrounds. Sub was an Outlaw LFM-1. It looked ridiculous but was much more pleasant/realistic IMHO.

 

[Highlander]

@quicksrt inquired earlier about the quad mix credit for Billy Cobham's Spectrum. No one answered, but I’m curious too.
Ken Scott did the stereo, but did he mix the quad?

 

[n8nagel]

Well I ordered mid-morning on Friday and got a shipping notification at 9:30 last night, looks like it actually did ship last night because it's moving through the FedEx system. I guess they shipped FedEx because I ordered more than the bundle? Anyway, here's hoping I actually get it... Unfortunately in my neighborhood FedEx seems to just pick a random neighbor to drop packages at. I felt bad when it was a subwoofer and the lady carried it down the street to me :/ And we're supposed to get hit with snow for the next couple days.

 

[DuncanS]

Mine are on the way over the pond, should arrive Friday along with the Foghat replacement thanks to @ForagingRhino

 

[quicksrt]

Wonder if the next batch will follow a theme. Batch 6 was more "rocking". Batch 7 was in celebration of Black History Month. Singer/songwriter batch? (Carly, JT, Lightfoot, Newman, for examples). Or a mixed selection?

I expect another Jazz album, gut feeling.
I would not mind another previously unissued quad mixed album.
Interestingly no James Taylor has appeared yet, and to be honest he’s low on my wish list.
Randy Newman’s Sail Away is high on my want list. Gordon and Carly are fine, but I’d rather have Rod and MJQ Concert, and / or Herbie Mann.

So mixed batch is my vote for next installment.

 

[quicksrt]

@quicksrt inquired earlier about the quad mix credit for Billy Cobham's Spectrum. No one answered, but I’m curious too.
Ken Scott did the stereo, but did he mix the quad?

I’m trying to recall if he is credited with other 70’s quad mixes? Seems like a Supertramp “Crime of the Century” quad mix was said to be completed and yet unissued. That would have likely been his as well - if the story is true. But however stellar rep Scott has in the studio, quad mixing is not what he’s well known for.

 

[steelydave]

I’m trying to recall if he is credited with other 70’s quad mixes? Seems like a Supertramp “Crime of the Century” quad mix was said to be completed and yet unissued. That would have likely been his as well - if the story is true. But however stellar rep Scott has in the studio, quad mixing is not what he’s well known for.

Not credited with anything released, but his autobiography mentions that he did a quad mix of Stanley Clarke's School Days in 1976 that was ultimately folded down to stereo because WEA dropped their support for quad before it came out.

As for the quad mix of Crime of the Century, if it did get done, I don't think it was by him, as mentioned in a quote from my Quadraphony in the UK thread:

That reminds me, I found an interesting quote from the January-February 2006 issue of Resolution magazine about the quad mix of Crime of the Century from Ken Scott (who co-produced and engineered the album) that suggests that most likely A&M's in-house quad remix crew of Marv Bornstein and Bart Chiate handled the quad mix: "When quadraphonic first came out, that was much the same: I got a phone call about doing Crime Of The Century in quad. I was asked how long it would take, and estimated no more than a couple of weeks. They said: ‘Are you kidding, we’ve got a guy who says he can do it in an afternoon!’"

Aside from that there's very few (or maybe even no) albums in his vast list of credits that had a quad release where the quad remix engineer is uncredited. Part of this may be attributable to the fact that he lived and worked in the UK (which was much less hot on the format than the US) for the majority of the "quad years" before finally moving to the US in early 1976 which is presumably when he started working on School Days.

 

[DrKlahn]

Where I really noticed this effect was at my ex's place, I set her up with an AVR and some typical Polk speakers. She had a 65"? I think? TV and mounted a shelf above it to set the center channel. It was really noticeable that the sound of e.g. a news program was coming from above the screen, rather than the lips of the anchor like you'd expect, and I found this really distracting. This was when I got silly as her basement room was very wide, and I set it up with two Genesis speakers in series (or did I wire them in parallel? I forget) right next to the screen, two more farther away for L&R, and EPI 100s for surrounds. Sub was an Outlaw LFM-1. It looked ridiculous but was much more pleasant/realistic IMHO.

Yeah I've dealt with the center having to work around RPTVs, inside of entertainment centers, etc. Placement can introduce problems. So can the center design. On my own setup I used a laser to mark where the main speaker tweeters hit the seat back and then angled the center to the point its tweeter was hitting the same spot. By necessity the rear 4 speakers are a higher than the mains to avoid firing into the seats. Yet, I can still get seamless pans front to rear. Ideally you would have the front 3 at the same height (and the same speaker). But it's not always possible.

Whether a phantom center is the best route is going to vary depending on the room and speakers. In most cases I wouldn't endorse folding an active channel down unless you have to.

Here's a recent example. It's not scientific. So take it for what it's worth. A gentleman I'm friends with in Kansas City through AVS and MWave has a very nice Paradigm setup (Personas) that employs a phantom center. We've been sharing multichannel music experiences for a while. There were a couple of discs that he reported that he thought the vocals were underwhelming (one was Hackney Diamonds). I got to visit his room during Mwave last summer and concurred with his observations on the problem discs. However, both have very clean, strong vocals on my setup. Both of us are using Lyngdorf preamps (MP40 and MP60). His Paradigms provided rock solid imaging with 2ch. So the question becomes how does my setup with lesser speakers provide a better experience? The only thing I can conclude is that in these cases the fold down is audibly worse with the phantom center.

 

[n8nagel]

Interesting. We're getting off topic here but what were you using to fold down? In my case it's been an Oppo 103 then 105 then finally 205 (and sadly it looks like that's the end of the road for that product line)

I started this because in my bedroom I only had room for four speakers anyway so I decided to use a quad receiver that I already had instead of buying another AVR so I used the Oppo to fold down 5.1/7.1 sources to 4.0. Didn't really feel like I was missing much, and subsequently have set up my living room AVR based system in two different small spaces and just left it 4.0 as both spaces were very small.

Interesting point about angling the center. Should I ever have a big enough space to try it, I will have to see how that works out. Those speakers are actually long gone though, they went to an old housemate who has yet to set them up after moving ~5 years ago.

 

[Chronic Quadraphonic]

I have an Oppo 105 that I love, and I use it every single day. I’m worried enough about losing it that I’m considering buying a backup unit from eBay or Reverb.

 

[boxhead]

@quicksrt inquired earlier about the quad mix credit for Billy Cobham's Spectrum. No one answered, but I’m curious too.
Ken Scott did the stereo, but did he mix the quad?

Well I know this isn't a definitive answer (as this SACD also has a stereo layer), but in the liner notes for the Audio Fidelity Quad SACD of Spectrum it notes:

Recording & re-mix engineer and "All Around Objective Ear": Ken Scott

There are no other mixing credits given, so who knows?

 

[Musichronosphere]

I just listened to Billy Cobham's Spectrum from Rhino. Great album with three mixes: Quadio, DTS 5.1 and DTS stereo. Very interesting. Check out Snoopy's Search. The Quadio mix starts with the fast arpeggios in the left channel. The DTS 5.1 and DTS stereo are reversed, starting with fast arpeggios in the right channel. When the song goes multi-channel, I like the DTS 5.1 the best, but each mix has its own merits. I think the DTS 5.1 has the most directional and cohesive sound overall.

 

[Juggsnelson]

Ordered all 4 and I feel this is a very string batch of releases. I'm a rock guy at heart but 70's Soul and Jazz is my second favorite genre so obviously I am pretty excited about these releases.

 

[n8nagel]

Looks like mine will be arriving on Friday, and I don't have any plans, so I guess I'll be spinning a few!

 

[scottm18]

So I just heard Foghat's "Slow Ride"--the full length version on the radio which is definitely a rarity. We have a cool station here that plays pretty much every cut full length. Anyway, obviously Energized was released last batch but what about the mega hit Fool the following year that has that classic tune on it? The original version of that song has all sorts of cool musical noodlings in it that would sound awesome in surround. Anyone know if that 1975 album was done in quad?

 

[scottm18]

Older formated discs like DVD-A encoded the surround channels as surround (back). At some point that was changed to surround (side).
Those older discs do play compatibly (via side outputs), with my Oppo player set to play via front and side only.

This design faux pas is exactly why I still use 5.1 today When I tried to hook up 7.1 I found the same thing--The Atmos disc for DSOTM even pokes fun at this very thing. . All my DVD Audios/SACDs (obtained all the top titles at the time) would play through the side speakers not the "back surround" speakers which I did not want. In addition to my living room looking like an electronics barn, there was no way I was going to reverse that connection back and forth depending on what I played. So...I just rounded up the best components I could possibly get and the best speakers (Cabinet speakers/subwoofer and the high tech AR Phantoms as shown) I could possibly get at the time--which I actually still have. Yes at one time Acoustic Research made more than just tape head cleaners

As for the argument about Center versus Phantom center...ll I know is there's a few Billy Joel SACD albums that shift his voice from the L/R speakers and the center speaker depending on the tracks, and the ones coming through the center sounds rather spectacular. Ironically, that's why I haven't changed my cabinet 20 years now...because there's a very nice center channel speaker tucked under the felt.

It's going to take a lot for a new system with multiple Atmos channels to match the superlative sound of this "lowly" 5 channel setup.

It also just happens to make for a fantastic QUAD setup as well because all four of the main speakers are full range--and the front go down to 28hz in a completely sealed enclosure.