Steve Hackett Selling England by the Pound and Spectral Mornings live at the Hammersmith 5.1 mixed by Steven Wilson

[Guy Robinson]

It is a common theme, even with the albums. The last album At the Edge Of Light has some horrible, bloated, boomy bass. It is unlistenable. I have had to adjust it in audacity, and will be burning my own disc.

I have what I would regard as perfect bass for both music and movies and it took me a long time to achieve that but with 3 subs bad bass mixes are just exacerbated unfortunately. The good news is that it is easier to cut back too much bass than to try to increase the bass on a system where you don't have the capability.

 

[peterzach]

This is sometimes frustrating that you have to look at the pictures to know what version it is and sometimes it could be misleading. In this case Hackett blu-ray will be sold on Amazon ca November 6. What I don't like is that Amazon doesn't work with the UPC code but their own asin catalog number.

Hey thanks. I think I had the wrong version in amazon.ca
I did put order in then for the one dated Nov.6th. Is this one you ordered as well?

https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B08F6RYGN7/ref=ox_sc_act_title_2?smid=A3DWYIK6Y9EEQB&psc=1

 

[Guy Robinson]

Hey thanks. I think I had the wrong version in amazon.ca
I did put order in then for the one dated Nov.6th. Is this one you ordered as well?

https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B08F6RYGN7/ref=ox_sc_act_title_2?smid=A3DWYIK6Y9EEQB&psc=1

If you put the ASIN number from amazon.ca B08F6RYGN7 into the search box on amazon.com you come up with the Blu-Ray version.

 

[rugene]

Hey thanks. I think I had the wrong version in amazon.ca
I did put order in then for the one dated Nov.6th. Is this one you ordered as well?

https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B08F6RYGN7/ref=ox_sc_act_title_2?smid=A3DWYIK6Y9EEQB&psc=1

Yes, you have the Blu-Ray version. I purchase at my home record shop the DVD version, 3 weeks ago.

 

[Guy Robinson]

The good thing about this recording is that it is so good that you can listen to it on a lower volume to avoid the fatigue and it still sounds great. For those wondering what low volume means to me, in this case the peak on a sound pressure meter is around 80db. It sounds great.

 

[Marplot]

you guys are killing me .. ordered 2cd/br

 

[sjcorne]

I ordered from Amazon US earlier this week and received it today. Thought it doesn't explicitly say so, I can confirm that the listing is definitely for the 2CD + Blu-Ray edition.

The performance is excellent (the lead singer sounds remarkably similar to Peter Gabriel!), but I'm not super-impressed with the 5.1 mix so far. My main system is five full-range speakers with no sub and there's too much bass here for my tastes. The kick drum in particular seems overly-aggressive and boomy. I couldn't really get it whacked up loud until I hit the low filter button on my amp and lowered the bass slightly on the front channels.

The other thing that bugs me is Hackett's guitar is frequently too far back in the mix. The epic "Firth Of Fifth" solo seems oddly subdued to me. I feel like the guitar should be screaming in that section, but oddly enough the bass line is more upfront.

There are definitely some discrete elements in the rear channels (organ, sax, backing vocals, shakers, etc), but I wish they would 'jump out' a bit more. Some moments are perfect though, like the crowd clapping along midway through "Firth Of Fifth", the backing vocals entering from behind in "More Fool Me", and the sax popping up in the rears in "After The Ordeal".

 

[peterzach]

I ordered from Amazon US earlier this week and received it today. Thought it doesn't explicitly say so, I can confirm that the listing is definitely for the 2CD + Blu-Ray edition.

So I looked up the one you ordered and it's ASIN : B08DSX3BRJ
Are you sure that's the one as other's are saying it's this one B08F6RYGN7.

peter

 

[sjcorne]

So I looked up the one you ordered and it's ASIN : B08DSX3BRJ
Are you sure that's the one as other's are saying it's this one B08F6RYGN7.

I ordered B08DSX3BRJ and got the 2CD/Blu-Ray digipak.

 

[Marplot]

Yeah, their listings on this release suck. I thought that was the DVD version and the $30 one was the BR .. guess who overpaid ...

 

[fthesoundguy]

I ordered B08DSX3BRJ and got the 2CD/Blu-Ray digipak.

View attachment 58773

Good to know. I bought one that specifically said Blu-Ray and its still on its way over the pond with my Seeds of Love set and TPT's Where We Stood. Though its going on 3 weeks now, hopefully i'll get it.

 

[peterzach]

Actually both of these could be correct as B08DSX3BRJ is Century (guessing USA version)
and B08F6RYGN7 looks like Inside Out Germany.

Checking further this is B08F6R3WN2(this is Dvd one from amazon uk).

 

[Guy Robinson]

I ordered from Amazon US earlier this week and received it today. Thought it doesn't explicitly say so, I can confirm that the listing is definitely for the 2CD + Blu-Ray edition.

The performance is excellent (the lead singer sounds remarkably similar to Peter Gabriel!), but I'm not super-impressed with the 5.1 mix so far. My main system is five full-range speakers with no sub and there's too much bass here for my tastes. The kick drum in particular seems overly-aggressive and boomy. I couldn't really get it whacked up loud until I hit the low filter button on my amp and lowered the bass slightly on the front channels.

The other thing that bugs me is Hackett's guitar is frequently too far back in the mix. The epic "Firth Of Fifth" solo seems oddly subdued to me. I feel like the guitar should be screaming in that section, but oddly enough the bass line is more upfront.

There are definitely some discrete elements in the rear channels (organ, sax, backing vocals, shakers, etc), but I wish they would 'jump out' a bit more. Some moments are perfect though, like the crowd clapping along midway through "Firth Of Fifth", the backing vocals entering from behind in "More Fool Me", and the sax popping up in the rears in "After The Ordeal".

Try it with 3 subwoofers and see how much bass there is. I don't find it boomy. It's tight. There's just way too much bass. I also had the same comment about the kickdrum and the guitars farther back in the thread. Glad someone else had the same comments.

 

[jimfisheye]

I ordered from Amazon US earlier this week and received it today. Thought it doesn't explicitly say so, I can confirm that the listing is definitely for the 2CD + Blu-Ray edition.

The performance is excellent (the lead singer sounds remarkably similar to Peter Gabriel!), but I'm not super-impressed with the 5.1 mix so far. My main system is five full-range speakers with no sub and there's too much bass here for my tastes. The kick drum in particular seems overly-aggressive and boomy. I couldn't really get it whacked up loud until I hit the low filter button on my amp and lowered the bass slightly on the front channels.

The other thing that bugs me is Hackett's guitar is frequently too far back in the mix. The epic "Firth Of Fifth" solo seems oddly subdued to me. I feel like the guitar should be screaming in that section, but oddly enough the bass line is more upfront.

There are definitely some discrete elements in the rear channels (organ, sax, backing vocals, shakers, etc), but I wish they would 'jump out' a bit more. Some moments are perfect though, like the crowd clapping along midway through "Firth Of Fifth", the backing vocals entering from behind in "More Fool Me", and the sax popping up in the rears in "After The Ordeal".

I wonder if this was damaged with a mistake in mastering? I hear all your sore points too. Notably the guitar being stepped on often and that bass bump. The bass bump and overall compression are suspicious. It's more like someone turned up a peak around 150Hz on the whole recording. None of this lines up with the quality of work we're used to hearing from Steve Wilson. I think we have another flawed release here. The flaws might pale next to the really gross stuff we're subjected to (still pretty much constantly) but this is flawed none the less. I was downplaying the negative on the first listen. Wondering if I was just in a mood. It's glaring on further listening.

Still worth buying and not to miss, mind you! There are degrees of this stuff.
More good than bad and this band is kicking ass with difficult material on a level you don't hear every day!

 

[dabl]

Agree with all the comments on the low end being just plain wrong (too much, too loud).

I have a Rythmik F15HP sub paired with Paradigm Studio 40s all around and that combo sounds fantastic for things that are mixed well.

I can lower the sub level easily on demand but that doesn't change the fact that the low end on this mix is too hot.

 

[Guy Robinson]

The only way I have found to listen to this is by keeping the maximum peak at the sweet spot to around 80 db. It's very listenable and enjoyable at that volume. It is a great release musically.

 

[timbre4]

This may come as a shock but I found this mix 99+% wonderful without adjusting anything! All I changed was the volume, goosing it up as much as I ever have without damaging anything. Bliss. I rarely adjust anything anymore unless something is really whacked up with program material. This has been my main system with minor changes for 15 years, also used for QA disc testing. I know how it’s supposed to sound (to me) and have it where I want it.

I watched the Spectral Morning tracks (love these) and then took the “intermission” just like the Hackett show we (Dennis Mabry, his wife and I) attended in Cleveland in October 2019. Then went in the house to have dinner with my wife and watched Marvelous Mrs. Maisel that we enjoy very much together. Then I returned to my office/man cave to resume with the main course.

Gear recap: Denon 4310 > Oppo BDP 103 - Cambridge Soundworks Tower I L+R mains bi-amped, MC400 center, New Ensembles for rears. Subwoofer I Powered and Slave subwoofers up front sideways together under the center channel; another Subwoofer I Powered & Slave subwoofers split apart into the back corners below the Ensemble mid-boxes and satellites on top. So that’s 2 subs or perhaps 4 subs actually. It takes a lot to excite a concrete floor. It looks kind of like P.A. stacks for the rears. Room is about 16 x 24 with vaulted ceiling. Crossover 80Hz like most use.

CAVEAT: This concert includes many of my ‘I-could-die-happy-for-having-been-blessed-with-this’ musical compositions.

The band is giving this material a top of class performance. The show I attended here in the states didn’t include John Hackett or Amanda Lehmann; they’re icing on the cake and used here in guest roles on certain songs. The core band is on fire throughout, nailing the tone, exuberance and nuance one expects growing up with this music so special to many of us.

Having mumbled and grumbled through most of the past Steve Hackett live DVDs & Blu Rays about the limp surround mix, I’m ecstatic with what Steven Wilson has done here, preserving the sheer firepower and delicate beauty you’d want for this. It’s about how the instruments collectively fit into the room in such a pleasing fashion. Everything is so clear, with impressive, surprising uses of the surrounds like you wish everybody knew how to conceive of and make happen.

Playback (Denon owner’s know the volume scale is reverse) levels might start for music as 20-24 if I’m paying attention and it’s not background or TV (typically 32-38). As soon as this started I was up to 18 then 16. Pretty soon a 12 becomes the norm and my most excited moments with Spectral Mornings may reach 6! Pretty loud now, still majestically clear. When I got to Selling England By the Pound I was staying 9-12 with peak moments like Dancing With The Moonlight Night or Firth Of Fifth up to 6 and Cinema Show @ 5 and even 4 in the middle section. F-ing loud and still very clear. This is about the limit as I got to 3 and I could hear the rear subs whispering “hull breach imminent” so I backed off.

The Bass: This seems to be the main theme in these posts so I’ll close with some qualifiers. I’m a bass player, but I don’t like too much of it. Has to fit the context. I’ve owned Taurus pedals since 1979 and have some idea what they’re about (current technical woes with Taurus I is another story). When the bass comes from depends on who’s in the band. There is of course a utility player - like Michael Rutherford in Genesis - to switch to rhythm guitar with bass pedals. A short history of these brave lads below.

Past bass players (lefty Lee Pomeroy now tours with Jeff Lynne ELO), Nick Beggs (wonderful on bass & stick, guitar not so much), Roine Stoldt (Flower Kings guitar mastermind) and now Jonas Reingold (Flower Kings bassist) expertly playing a Rickenbacker 4003 (vintage 4001?) to recreate the classic punchy tones of 1973 Genesis. Progressively, the bass pedal duties have disappeared from the player’s side of the stage altogether. I asked Rob Townshend (horns, keyboards, percussion) about it and he says he does some of the triggering (seen in this show where the same passage is played by both his foot pedals AND keyboard alternately); the balance is handled by primary keyboardist Roger King on a split keyboard zone. [NOTE: John Hackett used to play Taurus pedals by hand on a table; my 1979 rig was that way on a mic stand when I bought mine. TMI right?]

I sent Jonas a note through Facebook Messenger this morning: ‘Your playing on Steve Hackett’s Live at Hammersmith is just so smashing great! Steven Wilson’s great surround mix brought forth every molecule of your fine performance. Bravo from Nashville, Tim’. All in all my only regret is that I can’t vote higher than 10! SW projects always seem to make my modest system shine.

My homework is to find out exactly what Roger King is using for bass pedal parts on keyboard as it was dazzling. It’s not 100% Taurus but something possible richer still. The search continues for the ultimate Taurus fix.

 

[jimfisheye]

Having mumbled and grumbled through most of the past Steve Hackett live DVDs & Blu Rays about the limp surround mix, I’m ecstatic with what Steven Wilson has done here, preserving the sheer firepower and delicate beauty you’d want for this. It’s about how the instruments collectively fit into the room in such a pleasing fashion. Everything is so clear, with impressive, surprising uses of the surrounds like you wish everybody knew how to conceive of and make happen.

No argument there! This release finally has sound of the caliber that invites critical review and critique. Most live concert mixes are so crude that any detail of critique would be meaningless. Steve Wilson sets the bar incredibly high and invites critical review that wouldn't make sense almost anywhere else. Seemed fair to comment.

My first comment is still that there's more good than anything else here. I'm still thinking this is nailed even for the most critical fair weather fans! But my other critique stands. And I still think someone else messed with this after Steve Wilson.

The guitar needs to be just a little out of control in a few spots. Too polite!

I miss the 12-string backing part with bass pedals arrangement for the guitar solo section in Firth of Fifth. I know what I Like has an awkward altered drum part. That Phil song we would skip to make the album fit on a cassette back in the day... The rest of the album is an unbelievably great reading that you have to hear to believe! This might be a definitive version of Dance on a Volcano for me too.

Usually a review of a live album is more around if it's even at all audible with any sense of size and weight! This release was going for full production. They hit very high marks all the way around!

 

[stormchaser]

I noticed the bass issues noted above as well when I did a quick listen last night. I'll play around a bit to dial this in over the weekend.

 

[timbre4]

No argument there! This release finally has sound of the caliber that invites critical review and critique. Most live concert mixes are so crude that any detail of critique would be meaningless. Steve Wilson sets the bar incredibly high and invites critical review that wouldn't make sense almost anywhere else. Seemed fair to comment.

And I still think someone else messed with this after Steve Wilson.

Seems fine here; my gear is probably attuned to his mixes after all this time.

The guitar needs to be just a little out of control in a few spots. Too polite!

I'm not sure what you're expecting him to do; he's not improvising too much to preserve the arrangements; he has solid money shot solos that are golden halo perfect that we all love, he's not going to blow those bits we're all anticipating. Having said that, he did use whammy bar and his hands at least 50 times to warp the guitar sound and that's not playing it too safe.

I miss the 12-string backing part with bass pedals arrangement for the guitar solo section in Firth of Fifth.

Didn't notice. Would you please give me a timeline 00:00 where you say this didn't occur? Then I can understand better.

I know what I Like has an awkward altered drum part.

IKWIL - There's literally nothing sacred about this (hit) song over the years. I think the band grew tired of it as it was, letting it become a playground. On Seconds Out it became Phil's Tambourine Demo and Mike played a Hagstrom 8 string bass (checking the original sounds like 4 string Rick). They punched it up by changing it IMHO. It may be Craig's idea as the drummer to put that beat on it, if Steve (or the others) didn't like it or found it awkward, I don't think it would be there.

This reminds me of not appreciating the way Tony Levin played The Talking Drum with funk fingers (attachments you put on your picking/plucking hand) because it wasn't the right (40 years ingrained) tempo in my head. It took too long to keep hitting the notes fast enough when he wore those. Then I think okay, if Robert Fripp (or others) thought it was throwing things off, they'd ask him to play that part with just fingers. Mileage may vary...

That Phil song we would skip to make the album fit on a cassette back in the day...

Haha, yes! Twas still a bit longish.