Suggestions for Dutton Vocalion Multichannel SACD Releases

[4-earredwonder]

Yes it is, but Three Dog Night I was referring to. There should have been a 3DN quad of Golden Biscuits, and Mamas and Papas 16 Golden Greats.

But I would have dumpster dived for 1/4 in reels of Coming Down Your Way, and Countdown to Ectacy risking being fired or arrested in a heartbeat. Or simply carried an over-sized lunch box in and out every day until the pink slips were issued.

Some folks must have hoarded some reels but have now passed on and nobody knows now.

If they utilized one of those megabuck turntables with a state of the art tonearm/cartridge and employed the newest version of the Surround Master, I'd settle for quality QUAD rips from the vinyl. Just sayin'! Better than nothing.....

 

[quicksrt]

All 3 Steely Dan master reels were located and converted...

Wow, great news there! So those and Grass Roots survive, as well as maybe Jim Croce?

 

[sjcorne]

Wow, great news there! So those and Grass Roots survive, as well as maybe Jim Croce?

Not aware of duplication masters found for either of those- but there are a lot of Q8 conversions out there that actually sound great. I picked up the 3 Jim Croce carts over the summer and I have to say they do sound excellent! Better than your average Q8.

 

[quicksrt]

I think Croce's stuff was owned (only licensed to ABC) by his management/producers, and did not stay at ABC for that long, and finally ownership reverted back to Jim's estate after 20 years or so. Grass Roots multitrack tapes survive because they were pulled from the library for quad mixes of 16 Hits (while the purge had happened, but before they got around to dumping them.. So I would think 16 Hits (quad) masters survive as well. Not that the GR's quad of 16 Hits would ever come out again.

I just don't know about the ones said to appear on ebay. And I wonder? Was it high rollers here at QQ that grabbed them, or only noted that the deal went down? I am not interested in the details, but the titles - I am interested in what appeared.

 

[4-earredwonder]

I think Croce's stuff was owned (only licensed to ABC) by his management/producers, and did not stay at ABC for that long, and finally ownership reverted back to Jim's estate after 20 years or so. Grass Roots multitrack tapes survive because they were pulled from the library for quad mixes of 16 Hits (while the purge had happened, but before they got around to dumping them.. So I would think 16 Hits masters survive as well. Not that the GR's quad og 16 Hits would ever come out again.

I just don't know about the ones said to appear on ebay. And I wonder? Was it high rollers here at QQ that grabbed them, or only noted that the deal went down?

Or whether they were the absolute first generation master QUAD tapes ..... or duplicates? Always THAT possibility [probability].

BTW, Croce's widow has been approached about releasing Jim's QUAD masters but has 'supposedly' declined the offer. Perhaps an 'anniversary reissue date' might sway her. Would love to have his QUAD output in hi res SACD or BD~A.

 

[quicksrt]

Or whether they were the absolute first generation master QUAD tapes ..... or duplicates? Always THAT possibility [probability].

I would guess dupes for making Q8s / Q4s would be most likely to appear and those would still sound better than most all commercially issued Q4s. They are masters of a sort, just not first gen like what AF went after.

Without the internet, we would all be in mystery land never knowing and never hearing about quad anything. There may have been no surround comeback at all, forget about AF or DV reissuing the real things.

 

[4-earredwonder]

I would guess dupes for making Q8s / Q4s would be most likely to appear and those would still sound better than most all commercially issued Q4s. They are masters of a sort, just not first gen like what AF went after.

Without the internet, we would all be in mystery land never knowing and never hearing about quad anything. There may have been no surround comeback at all, forget about AF or DV reissuing the real things.

I sometimes wonder if a lot of reissued SACDs or High Res downloads are ACTUALLY from the original master tapes as a lot of the majors were VERY SLOPPY in archiving their 'treasures.'

With the 'failure' of QUAD in the 70's to catch fire, those masters would've been less likely to survive the deluge. Although, as we know, some 'miraculously' did.

 

[quicksrt]

BTW, Croce's widow has been approached about releasing Jim's QUAD masters but has 'supposedly' declined the offer. Perhaps an 'anniversary reissue date' might sway her. Would love to have his QUAD output in hi res SACD or BD~A.

Yes, Marshall told me that as well during a lunch I had with him in LA back when the quad thing was going fairly strong.

I would love to see, and I know I never will in this lifetime, a Tommy James and the Shondells 4-Song quad set with the true quad mixes of the 4 hot songs, or is it 5 songs that are real and true? Sweet Cherry Wine, Crystal Blue Persuasion, Crimson and Clover, and Ball of Fire are the ones mixed from 8-tracks I think. I have a poor conversion of that cartridge. Cherry Wine is a childhood fave, psychedelic sunshine masterpiece!

 

[quicksrt]

With the 'failure' of QUAD in the 70's to catch fire, those masters would've been less likely to survive the deluge. Although, as we know, some 'miraculously' did.

Works both ways, they (quad masters) can disappear without anyone knowing of their existence, or they can be better preserved with less wear and tear. Sometimes the quad reels are perfect and untouched, and the stereo reels worn out with pieces spliced/patched in where a deck chewed on them.

 

[4-earredwonder]

Yes, Marshall told me that as well during a lunch I had with him in LA back when the quad thing was going fairly strong.

I would love to see, and I know I never will in this lifetime, a Tommy James and the Shondells 4-Song quad set with the true quad mixes of 4 hots, or is it 5 songs that are real and true? Sweet Cherry Wine, Crystal Blue Persuasion, Crimson and Clover, and Ball of Fire are the ones mixed from 8-tracks I think. I have a poor conversion of that cartridge. Cherry Wine is a childhood fave, psychedelic sunshine masterpiece!

Nice.....having lunch with Marshall. I still consider him a gentleman and will always support his efforts but I felt he really got shafted by the majors who really should've been grateful that their moribund QUAD masters, still rotting in hell, would have a new life on mch SACD.

Still don't know how Michael Dutton does it. He makes it look so effortless [but we ALL know its NOT].

Marshall and AF were just on the wrong side of the Pond! RIP to a CLASS ACT! Even AF's Stereo SACD reissues sound stunning and were always priced below MoFi/AP at the wholesale level.

 

[quicksrt]

Nice.....having lunch with Marshall. I still consider him a gentleman and will always support his efforts but I felt he really got shafted by the majors who really should've been grateful that their moribund QUAD masters, still rotting in hell, would have a new life on mch SACD.

Still don't know how Michael Dutton does it. He makes it look so effortless [but we ALL know its NOT].

Marshall and AF were just on the wrong side of the Pond! RIP to a CLASS ACT!

I think Marshall was too nice about not issuing stuff others had already in the past or currently. He told me it was out or courtesy / respect that they all tended to stay away from each others titles/releases, and not a contractual thing. MFSL does not get exclusive licenses that says only they can have that title for three years. As far as I know and was told, it's simply never given to them. A Sony or Capitol would always want to retain the right to do whatever they want to do with that album, while MFSL has their day with it. They (AF) being fearful a hot title that was out 8 or 10 years ago would also mean poor sales. And yet we are seeing D/V go and grab RTR and WR for SACD and with quad in a fearless effort to have the classiest jazz/rock fusion artists/titles ever mixed to quad in their catalog.

Sometimes you have to bite the bullet and issue what your heart says is the best you can get and screw what everyone else has out. Look at Analog Productions, put out B.S& T including S/T which has been out two of three times already on SACD. They don't care and they want a box set with that album included. Child is father to man, same deal, it;s been done, but was done again.

 

[4-earredwonder]

I think Marshall was too nice about not issuing stuff others had already in the past or currently. He told me it was out or courtesy / respect that they all tended to stay away from each others titles/releases, and not a contractual thing. MFSL does not get exclusive licenses that says only they can have that title for three years. As far as I know and was told, it's simply never given to them. A Sony or Capitol would always want to retain the right to do whatever they want to do with that album, while MFSL has their day with it. They (AF) being fearful a hot title that was out 8 or 10 years ago would also mean poor sales. And yet we are seeing D/V go and grab RTR and WR for SACD and with quad in a fearless effort to have the classiest jazz/rock fusion artists/titles ever mixed to quad in their catalog.

Sometimes you have to bite the bullet and issue what your heart says is the best you can get and screw what everyone else has out. Look at Analog Productions, put out B.S& T including S/T which has been out two of three times already on SACD. They don't care and they want a box set with that album included. Child is father to man, same deal, it;s been done, but was done again.

In this dog eat dog world, you're right. Marshall was way too polite and considerate of the other US reissue companies when he should've been more 'aggressive.' Guess it was not his style. Good guys DO finish LAST. But QQ moderator bmoura's tales of $30K licensing fees PER SACD reissue plus the actual cost of replicating the discs [in Austria] also added to the woes. Doubtful, D~V is getting as raw a deal as their pricing reflects a whole different 'arrangement' with SONY and other majors in the UK.

 

[quicksrt]

Marshall and AF were just on the wrong side of the Pond! RIP to a CLASS ACT! Even AF's Stereo SACD reissues sound stunning and were always priced below MoFi/AP at the wholesale level.

When Loggins and Messina's S/T album was announced and it became known that they attempted Full Sail first, but did not find the tapes, I was heartbroken and after acceptance became in a state of disbelief. It was like I knew that master had not walked away. That it was a simple case of The Mastering Lab had not returned it, or Japan borrowed it and never returned it. And then it was found and approved for AF to issue. And it came out so wonderful sounding too.

Things like that album and 20 others that AF got us is amazing!!! To hear EW&F in quad sounding that great was a very positive experience - it gave me much more optimism than I previously had (about quad in a modern world on modern format). The stuff sounds too good not to get reissued. I'd bet that these demo-disc type titles woke up some people in the industry. That and Pink Floyd and Tull pulling quad masters and making $100 box sets out of them must make some waves in the industry.

 

[quicksrt]

In this dog eat dog world, you're right. Marshall was way too polite and considerate of the other US reissue companies when he should've been more 'aggressive.' Guess it was not his style. Good guys DO finish LAST. But QQ moderator bmoura's tales of $30K licensing fees PER SACD reissue plus the actual cost of replicating the discs [in Austria] also added to the woes. Doubtful, D~V is getting as raw a deal as their pricing reflects a whole different 'arrangement' with SONY and other majors in the UK.

It was average 30k total to get it in shrink wrap delivered. Which is still a lot to lay out upfront. Then, to get a defect will just about kill the profits on a title.

 

[sjcorne]

Then, to get a defect will just about kill the profits on a title.

I guess Sly's Hits (which should've been such a coup) ending up being a loss because of complaints about an off-center mono layer. And It also explains why they never reissued the Mahavishu Orchestra disc which had the flipped front channels. I think that was the right call actually- it's easy enough to just flip your speaker cables IMO.

 

[4-earredwonder]

When Loggins and Messina's S/T album was announced and it became known that they attempted Full Sail first, but did not find the tapes, I was heartbroken and after acceptance became in a state of disbelief. It was like I knew that master had not walked away. That it was a simple case of The Mastering Lab had not returned it, or Japan borrowed it and never returned it. And then it was found and approved for AF to issue. And it came out so wonderful sounding too.

Things like that album and 20 others that AF got us is amazing!!! To hear EW&F in quad sounding that great was a very positive experience - it gave me much more optimism than I previously had (about quad in a modern world on modern format). The stuff sounds too good not to get reissued. I'd bet that these demo-disc type titles woke up some people in the industry. That and Pink Floyd and Tull pulling quad masters and making $100 box sets out of them must make some waves in the industry.

Better late than never that we finally have the tools and formats to effectively hear QUAD/5.1 for the first time effectively mirroring those QUAD Open Reel 15 ips Masters. IF mainstream world wide music listeners ONY embraced the format.

We GET IT because we're a passionate bunch who revel in hearing music other than low res MP3 or plain stereo but it's so niche as to be almost undetectable. Remember, people are watching movies on their iPhones and think of what a slap in the face that's to movie directors, cinematographers and editors, etc. who spend YEARS crafting these films to hopefully be appreciated on a BIG SCREEN.

Don't ever try to figure out people....or attempt to sway their opinions. Spend that time instead listening to music in the best formats available and view cinema on the largest screen imaginable.

 

[4-earredwonder]

I guess Sly's Hits (which should've been such a coup) ending up being a loss because of complaints about an off-center mono layer. And It also explains why they never reissued the Mahavishu Orchestra disc which had the flipped front channels. I think that was the right call actually- it's easy enough to just flip your speaker cables IMO.

I never ordered a corrected SLY disc.....was grateful just to hear it in QUAD. But regarding Mahavishu's flipped fronts ..... IMO, a no no since one shouldn't have to alter their systems [provided they're properly calibrated] to accommodate a faulty replicated disc. One size should fit ALL if you know what I mean.

 

[sjcorne]

I never ordered a corrected SLY disc.....was grateful just to hear it in QUAD. But regarding Mahavishu's flipped fronts ..... IMO, a no no since one shouldn't have to alter their systems [provided they're properly calibrated] to accommodate a faulty replicated disc. One size should fit ALL if you know what I mean.

We are way OT on this thread, but like what would you rather have: No Mahavishnu Orchestra Quad SACD, or a perfectly good one with switched front channels? Do you just not listen to it because of the swap?

It always aggravates me reading the poll thread for that disc because like 90% of the posts are about problems and not how good it sounds. The switch doesn't compromise the mix at all except for one occasion (beginning of "One Word" where the drums pan in an X instead of a perfect circle).

I love that disc (along with all the AF quads), I'm incredibly glad it exists. I'd rather switch two cables than spend hours trying to clean up an SQ or a Q8.

End rant.

 

[quicksrt]

I never ordered a corrected SLY disc.....was grateful just to hear it in QUAD. But regarding Mahavishu's flipped fronts ..... IMO, a no no since one shouldn't have to alter their systems [provided they're properly calibrated] to accommodate a faulty replicated disc. One size should fit ALL if you know what I mean.

With vintage quad finally appearing regularly, I am willing to make a few adjustments (forgive) and get over myself. The Ten Years After - A Space in Time was a pretty big screw-up. But such a strong album and so desirable in quad, I can forgive and be happy. Someone will do a re-assignment on that one one day, either a fan redo, or a studio/label reissue. Or I will do my own front to back flip of chans, and encode to flac for the server.

 

[4-earredwonder]

We are way OT on this thread, but like what would you rather have: No Mahavishnu Orchestra Quad SACD, or a perfectly good one with switched front channels? Do you just not listen to it because of the swap?

It always aggravates me reading the poll thread for that disc because like 90% of the posts are about problems and not how good it sounds. The switch doesn't compromise the mix at all except for one occasion (beginning of "One Word" where the drums pan in an X instead of a perfect circle).

I love that disc (along with all the AF quads), I'm incredibly glad it exists. I'd rather switch two cables than spend hours trying to clean up an SQ or a Q8.

End rant.

Since I have that Mahavishu disc on LP and other formats, when I pay good money for a triple~dipped remaster [especially in QUAD] I expect it to be perfect just like when I go to a high end steak house, I won't settle for a fatty subpar piece of meat.


I'm funny that way, sjcorne. I'm still pissed off about the Ten Years After A Space In Time QUAD 'remaster' where the fronts and backs were switched. No reason for such sloppiness....and they NEVER offered a replacement. Double pissed off.

Excuse my rant.

I run a small business and the picayune things the public choose to criticize are annoying but if you want repeat business "the public is ALWAYS right' even though they're NOT.

And to STAY ON TOPIC, D~V, IMO, has a 100% STELLAR TRACK RECORD because Michael Dutton ensures that Quality Control on all his Surround SACD remasters are perfect the first time around. Nuff said!