Suggestions for Dutton Vocalion Multichannel SACD Releases

[ubertrout]

This may have been mentioned earlier in this thread:

The CD layer could contain the Matrix encoded (all software
SQ or QS [possibly Involve Audio] Quad encoder) version of
the Discrete Quad content on the SACD layer.

That way CD/Stereo listeners would get to hear the Quad
mix (some with significant differences from the existing
Stereo mix) and be able to decode (w/Headphones, simple
Matrix or logic directed Matrix decoders) the Quad content.

(maybe the original Stereo mix could be made available
as a Streaming option, with a "Redeem Stereo" paper
insert with a code a la Blu-ray movies)


Kirk Bayne

DV did this once, I'd be curious if the feedback was positive, negative, or nonexistent?

I'll admit my general impulse is to oppose this to the extent it results in fewer overall releases. I don't think there's enough of an audience for this media (really just people with Involve hardware and working vintage decoders), and even most of them have a SACD player as well. Obviously my feelings might vary if I was one of those people, but I'd much rather attention was focused on discrete quad transfers plus stereo (which is still I suspect why a majority of people buy these releases).

The other problem is where to put the matrix track on a twofer. There's typically not room in either the CD or SACD area for another stereo track, and I'd much rather have a second album than the matrixed audio - and I think people want regular CD and SACD stereo tracks, even if not as much here.

The option of a download code for matrixed files is a fine idea in theory, but I suspect it's a licensing nightmare.

I'd suggest this might be more productive to push for on specific deluxe editions where a matrixed audio track could be added to the blu-ray.

 

[J. PUPSTER]

DV did this once, I'd be curious if the feedback was positive, negative, or nonexistent?

I'll admit my general impulse is to oppose this to the extent it results in fewer overall releases. I don't think there's enough of an audience for this media (really just people with Involve hardware and working vintage decoders), and even most of them have a SACD player as well. Obviously my feelings might vary if I was one of those people, but I'd much rather attention was focused on discrete quad transfers plus stereo (which is still I suspect why a majority of people buy these releases).

The other problem is where to put the matrix track on a twofer. There's typically not room in either the CD or SACD area for another stereo track, and I'd much rather have a second album than the matrixed audio - and I think people want regular CD and SACD stereo tracks, even if not as much here.

The option of a download code for matrixed files is a fine idea in theory, but I suspect it's a licensing nightmare.

I'd suggest this might be more productive to push for on specific deluxe editions where a matrixed audio track could be added to the blu-ray.

I believe the issue at heart is being confused IINM.

 

[steelydave]

Yeah I'm just gonna pour cold water on this idea. On the rare occasion where the original discrete master tape is missing (Sextant, etc.) D-V have included the SQ version on the SACD stereo layer, and while it's possible this may happen again in the future if a similar situation arises, the priority has been, and always will be titles that have suitable-quality master tapes available.

I don't know if people totally realize how much work goes into these discs as-is: any "standard" D-V disc already has three separate masterings on it, multichannel, SACD stereo and CD stereo - the CD stereo isn't just a downconvert of the DSD mastering, it's a unique mastering that takes into account the differences between DSD and PCM.

Adding a fourth mastering (SQ-encoded stereo on the SACD stereo layer) just to satisfy a fetish of a handful of people with SQ decoding hardware seems like time and money poorly spent to me. I feel like if you have a disc with a discrete master on it and you want to listen to a decode based on an inherently-flawed 50 year old matrix instead that maybe you're more in love with gear than the music itself, and there are a million used SQ/QS/EV records on eBay if you want food for your matrix decoder.

 

[4-earredwonder]

Yeah I'm just gonna pour cold water on this idea. On the rare occasion where the original discrete master tape is missing (Sextant, etc.) D-V have included the SQ version on the SACD stereo layer, and while it's possible this may happen again in the future if a similar situation arises, the priority has been, and always will be titles that have suitable-quality master tapes available.

I don't know if people totally realize how much work goes into these discs as-is: any "standard" D-V disc already has three separate masterings on it, multichannel, SACD stereo and CD stereo - the CD stereo isn't just a downconvert of the DSD mastering, it's a unique mastering that takes into account the differences between DSD and PCM.

Adding a fourth mastering (SQ-encoded stereo on the SACD stereo layer) just to satisfy a fetish of a handful of people with SQ decoding hardware seems like time and money poorly spent to me. I feel like if you have a disc with a discrete master on it and you want to listen to a decode based on an inherently-flawed 50 year old matrix instead that maybe you're more in love with gear than the music itself, and there are a million used SQ/QS/EV records on eBay if you want food for your matrix decoder.

I totally agree, Dave. I've been playing my D~V QUAD SACDs for the past two weeks and still marvel at their excellence and I've always praised D~V's RBCDs for their astounding clarity.

Michael Dutton certainly has his own unique style and mode of execution and why mess with a tried and true formula.

 

[kfbkfb]

My idea was inspired by the Jackson 5 LP that's a CD-4 type
Quad to Stereo folddown (that alone is the selling point for
the release, having alternate mixes without needing any type
of decoder).

I don't know how many of the DV MCH releases have been
previously released (by another label) in Stereo in some
form of Digital Audio, so making the Quad mix available
in Stereo could be a (unique) selling point, whether the Quad
mix is a CD-4 type folddown or Matrix encoded (I vote for
Matrix encoded, then even the DynaQuad speaker matrix
decoder could be used to get some form of Surround sound).


Kirk Bayne

 

[kap'n krunch]

I totally agree, Dave. I've been playing my D~V QUAD SACDs for the past two weeks and still marvel at their excellence and I've always praised D~V's RBCDs for their astounding clarity.

Michael Dutton certainly has his own unique style and mode of execution and why mess with a tried and true formula.

Same here...industry standard releases!!!

 

[jaybird100]

DV did this once, I'd be curious if the feedback was positive, negative, or nonexistent?

I'll admit my general impulse is to oppose this to the extent it results in fewer overall releases. I don't think there's enough of an audience for this media (really just people with Involve hardware and working vintage decoders), and even most of them have a SACD player as well. Obviously my feelings might vary if I was one of those people, but I'd much rather attention was focused on discrete quad transfers plus stereo (which is still I suspect why a majority of people buy these releases).

The other problem is where to put the matrix track on a twofer. There's typically not room in either the CD or SACD area for another stereo track, and I'd much rather have a second album than the matrixed audio - and I think people want regular CD and SACD stereo tracks, even if not as much here.

The option of a download code for matrixed files is a fine idea in theory, but I suspect it's a licensing nightmare.

I'd suggest this might be more productive to push for on specific deluxe editions where a matrixed audio track could be added to the blu-ray.

My idea was to use the RBCD layer for the matrixed version, keeping the original stereo mix, as it was originally, on the SACD stereo layer. Since the original discrete quad master is used for the SACD MC layer, that mic could be used to create a matrixed version. The Involve encoder would be the logical choice for the process. The results sound great in stereo, with headphones, PL II, QS, or Involve's own decoder (the Surround Master). It's just a thought, but it could work.

 

[ubertrout]

My idea was to use the RBCD layer for the matrixed version, keeping the original stereo mix, as it was originally, on the SACD stereo layer. Since the original discrete quad master is used for the SACD MC layer, that mic could be used to create a matrixed version. The Involve encoder would be the logical choice for the process. The results sound great in stereo, with headphones, PL II, QS, or Involve's own decoder (the Surround Master). It's just a thought, but it could work.

The fly in the ointment is that I wouldn't be surprised if a majority of people are buying these releases for the CD stereo layer. I know that seems crazy but it seems to match what I keep hearing about sales statistics.

 

[JediJoker]

...SACD stereo and CD stereo - the CD stereo isn't just a downconvert of the DSD mastering, it's a unique mastering that takes into account the differences between DSD and PCM.

And not done at the same time (split feed)? That seems excessive. Even heavy hitter MoFi just uses conversions for the Redbook layer. Steve Hoffman used a split feed for AF releases (don't know about Kevin Gray).

 

[zardozislove]

I would love to see them release the Firesign Theatre quad titles.

 

[J. PUPSTER]

I’m ready!

 

[4-earredwonder]

I’m ready!

View attachment 59824

If I didn't know any better, I'd swear PUPSTER was one of Dutton~Vocalion's busy, busy Elves

 

[Bob Romano]

I would love to see them release the Firesign Theatre quad titles.

Instant buy for.me.

 

[Scott65]

If I didn't know any better, I'd swear PUPSTER was one of Dutton~Vocalion's busy, busy Elves

I think he may be working for Bad Santa....

 

[J. PUPSTER]

I think he may be working for Bad Santa....

My fav Holiday movie

 

[Scott65]

My fav Holiday movie

It's a great movie. I also like Scrooged.

 

[quicksrt]

What is the reason the winter quads are unavailable? The edgar winter box sets released in 2018 on cherry red?

I get the impression that there are several reasons, and that these reasons are not insurmountable.

1. BGO has had Edgar & Johnny Winter albums out on CD in the UK for many years - included are two-fers, etc.
2. Their album catalog might not be big sellers at this late point in time (not very many hits to report)
3. AF stayed away from "They Only Come Out at Night" (three hit singles) because MFSL had it out on SACD (20 years ago)
4. Which albums should be considered? Just the big hit album, or an additional? Two Johnny and two Edgar albums? .

So it looks like some risk is involved financially. But I think there are reasons we might actually see these come out on SACD with quad layers, and here are the reasons.

1. Tapes are likely in order and in good shape
2. These albums do fit well as two-fers (two albums on one quad SACD)
3. The sales and careers have cooled off enough that licensing costs might not be so prohibitive.
4. They are Sony controlled, and DV has a good line of communication obviously.
5. The albums are solid musically, and quad mixes are strong.
6. The albums that are of top choice quality, and titles available, is not a bottomless pit. These albums are standing out as obvious choices when "quad" rock titles controlled by Sony are considered.
7. If Rick Derringer as a two-fer can happen, two-fers of four Winter titles is definitely on the table.

 

[jaybird100]

I see that DV has discovered Ray Davies and The Button-Down Brass, largely unheard outside of Europe. The disc they've released so far was recorded after they signed with Philips, but before that, they had several very good albums on Pye's "4D" QS quad series. In fact, Pye (now PRT) had several very good quad albums, and it would be interesting to see at least some of those make it to multichannel SACD.

 

[Aging quadie]

I would love to see them release the Firesign Theatre quad titles.

Last year David Ossman told me that Bozos and Everything You Know Is Wrong are best heard in the quad mixes. He added that Phil Austin spent hours in the studio working on the four-channel mixes.

 

[fredblue]

I see that DV has discovered Ray Davies and The Button-Down Brass, largely unheard outside of Europe. The disc they've released so far was recorded after they signed with Philips, but before that, they had several very good albums on Pye's "4D" QS quad series. In fact, Pye (now PRT) had several very good quad albums, and it would be interesting to see at least some of those make it to multichannel SACD.

hoping the Pye Quad masters are safely held in somebody's vaults! they did some great mixes!!